1.9 Pump Lid and Gov Mod Question....

[shwak23]

I don't know how to describe this thing so here is a picture.



What is this thing? It greatly interferes with putting the lid back on the pump. Any ideas?

Also I have another question. I shimmed another pump's governor completely.
 In a fashion I have seen other people on this board do successfully. (Shim is piece of 5/16 copper nickel line as seen below.)



 However once reassembling I was unable to spin the throttle shaft (without return springs) more than 90 degrees. Which normally it spins just under 180 degrees.
 It felt like it was just hitting the shim after compressing the other springs. It is incredibly frustrating especially when one knows other people have done this without any problems. 

(Really just looking for a specific answer and not advice on whether or not a fully shimmed governor is good or bad. :-P Thx)

Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.




Sent From Outer Space

[libbydiesel]

The first picture is the shutoff lever for vehicles with automatic transmissions.

Even though you're only looking for an answer and not looking for advice/opinions, the advice/opinion is the cost of an answer..  WRT shimming the governor solid I have to state that I find it to be a counterproductive effort (especially if you have a full aneroid pump) that stems from the mentality that if a little is good then a lot must be even better and an infinite amount must be the absolute best...  If you apply that 'logic' to any real 'good thing' (e.g. food, sleep, work, vacation, entertainment, excitement, relaxation, sensual experiences, travel, etc.........), then the absurdity of it is very clear...   The real best is almost never at the extreme...  

Here's your answer.  There is a certain range of motion to the control collar/lever assembly.  With a stock governor spring, once the control collar is moved to the end of it's range of motion, then further motion of the accelerator lever compresses the intermediate and main governor spring.  If you eliminate all of the compressibility then obviously you will also limit the range of motion of the accelerator shaft/lever as a good portion of that range of motion is in compressing the springs.  There's your answer, next up the reason it's a problem...  If you have the range of motion of the accelerator pedal set so that it exceeds the range of motion of the accelerator lever on the pump then you will stress the accelerator cable and lever whenever you floor the pedal.  Because of that, it's wise, IMO to adjust the max rpm screw (accelerator lever full pedal stop) so that it is at the same point as the where the lever is pulled to when the pedal is floored (obviously if you're shimming the governor you don't care about the actual max rpm).  If that setting now makes it so the accelerator lever's range of motion is less than the range of motion of the control collar you have effectively reduced max fueling (oops).  If, on the other hand, the range of motion of the accelerator lever exceeds the range of motion of the accelerator shaft (due to the shim), then you will put extreme stress on the control collar lever assembly (the pounds of force of the pressure of your foot on the pedal is multiplied by the ratio of the accelerator lever offset to the governor capsule lever offset plus the force of the spinning flyweights pushing the center piece of the governor against the control lever assembly - all of that is pushing against the control collar which is at the extent of it's travel).  That can cause the control lever to bend or break fairly easily (oops).   You might be able to get a non-turbo pump set up reasonably well by adjusting the max rpm screw to match the maxed position of the control collar and then adjust the slack in the cable or cable ball offset so that it coincides with the floored pedal, but the issue becomes even more difficult if you are using an aneroid equipped pump (which you are, based on the picture) because the range of motion of the control collar lever assembly varies with the motion of the boost pin in the aneroid.  That variable range of motion makes it so that it's not possible to set it up right with a fully shimmed mainspring.  You can only set it up to either overstress the lever assembly when off-boost or you limit the range of motion so that on-boost you end up with less fuel than you would without the shim.  Doh...  

[Gizmoman]

WoW.

If you shim it to solid after that. . .
 

[shwak23]

The first picture is the shutoff lever for vehicles with automatic transmissions.

Even though you're only looking for an answer and not looking for advice/opinions, the advice/opinion is the cost of an answer..  WRT shimming the governor solid I have to state that I find it to be a counterproductive effort (especially if you have a full aneroid pump) that stems from the mentality that if a little is good then a lot must be even better and an infinite amount must be the absolute best...  If you apply that 'logic' to any real 'good thing' (e.g. food, sleep, work, vacation, entertainment, excitement, relaxation, sensual experiences, travel, etc.........), then the absurdity of it is very clear...   The real best is almost never at the extreme...  

Here's your answer.  There is a certain range of motion to the control collar/lever assembly.  With a stock governor spring, once the control collar is moved to the end of it's range of motion, then further motion of the accelerator lever compresses the intermediate and main governor spring.  If you eliminate all of the compressibility then obviously you will also limit the range of motion of the accelerator shaft/lever as a good portion of that range of motion is in compressing the springs.  There's your answer, next up the reason it's a problem...  If you have the range of motion of the accelerator pedal set so that it exceeds the range of motion of the accelerator lever on the pump then you will stress the accelerator cable and lever whenever you floor the pedal.  Because of that, it's wise, IMO to adjust the max rpm screw (accelerator lever full pedal stop) so that it is at the same point as the where the lever is pulled to when the pedal is floored (obviously if you're shimming the governor you don't care about the actual max rpm).  If that setting now makes it so the accelerator lever's range of motion is less than the range of motion of the control collar you have effectively reduced max fueling (oops).  If, on the other hand, the range of motion of the accelerator lever exceeds the range of motion of the accelerator shaft (due to the shim), then you will put extreme stress on the control collar lever assembly (the pounds of force of the pressure of your foot on the pedal is multiplied by the ratio of the accelerator lever offset to the governor capsule lever offset plus the force of the spinning flyweights pushing the center piece of the governor against the control lever assembly - all of that is pushing against the control collar which is at the extent of it's travel).  That can cause the control lever to bend or break fairly easily (oops).   You might be able to get a non-turbo pump set up reasonably well by adjusting the max rpm screw to match the maxed position of the control collar and then adjust the slack in the cable or cable ball offset so that it coincides with the floored pedal, but the issue becomes even more difficult if you are using an aneroid equipped pump (which you are, based on the picture) because the range of motion of the control collar lever assembly varies with the motion of the boost pin in the aneroid.  That variable range of motion makes it so that it's not possible to set it up right with a fully shimmed mainspring.  You can only set it up to either overstress the lever assembly when off-boost or you limit the range of motion so that on-boost you end up with less fuel than you would without the shim.  Doh...  

Ok I understand what you are saying. However I have a fully shimmed gov on my car that was done by a member on here. He saw my shim for this pump and confirmed it was similar to how he does it.
On my pump my throttle lever retains the full range of travel as it would without a shim.
This one that I am shimming is a 1.6 td pump; not the one featured in my first question.
Regardless of pros and cons I just want to know why my pump works and this other pump wont allow for the exact same mod.
After what you said I will most likely not shim the gov fully but I am curious why it would work with one pump and not another.


As for the automatic shutoff thing.

Can I remove it?

What should/can I stick in there to seal where it was?

Sent From Outer Space

[bbob203]

I believe you can remove it and put a bolt in it and seal it with a copper washer..

[libbydiesel]

Ok I understand what you are saying. However I have a fully shimmed gov on my car that was done by a member on here. He saw my shim for this pump and confirmed it was similar to how he does it.
On my pump my throttle lever retains the full range of travel as it would without a shim.
This one that I am shimming is a 1.6 td pump; not the one featured in my first question.
Regardless of pros and cons I just want to know why my pump works and this other pump wont allow for the exact same mod.
After what you said I will most likely not shim the gov fully but I am curious why it would work with one pump and not another.


As for the automatic shutoff thing.

Can I remove it?

What should/can I stick in there to seal where it was?

Sent From Outer Space

Just to be clear, you are comparing two of the same pumps (both 1.6TD) that are both shimmed the same and while comparing them both, you have the accelerator levers removed and you are comparing the number of degrees of rotation independant of the idle/residual pressure screws and the max rpm screws?

You can remove the automatic shutoff thing although I don't find it to make pump lid removal or replacement difficult.  I have removed the lever before as it interfered with some custom parts.   When I did I used an allen head NPT plug.  I wouldn't bother on a stock pump as  but the work of tapping and installing a plug is a whole lot more than the added effort of installing the lid with the lever in place. 

[745 turbogreasel]

That, and I like the security of a shutoff handy under the hood.  If you really can't get it  back on, you probably are doing it wrong, but you could  cut the arm off, and it would still seal.

[shwak23]

Just to be clear, you are comparing two of the same pumps (both 1.6TD) that are both shimmed the same and while comparing them both, you have the accelerator levers removed and you are comparing the number of degrees of rotation independant of the idle/residual pressure screws and the max rpm screws?

That is correct. When the arm is attached properly lined up with the original spline it wont rotate further than about a quarter inch.

You can remove the automatic shutoff thing although I don't find it to make pump lid removal or replacement difficult.  I have removed the lever before as it interfered with some custom parts.   When I did I used an allen head NPT plug.  I wouldn't bother on a stock pump as  but the work of tapping and installing a plug is a whole lot more than the added effort of installing the lid with the lever in place. 

I don't know what I am doing wrong. It seems to make it a struggle to put the lid back on. Catching on the gov assembly.

That, and I like the security of a shutoff handy under the hood.  If you really can't get it  back on, you probably are doing it wrong, but you could  cut the arm off, and it would still seal.

I have the fuel cut off solenoid attached with a spade connector so I can pull the wire if need be.

Sent From Outer Space

[745 turbogreasel]

Still depending on the solenoid.

[theman53]

Is it as simple as the lever spinning the wrong way? If you know what I mean, then push it down rotate it so it clears and push it back up. I am not the pump expert but had a similar issue and it was because when I had it apart I was looking at it upside down, so I put it back in such a way it hit the pump. I didn't install it that way, it just took a bit for me to find it.

[wisconsinjohnson]

If you push the auto trans shut off to the off position, and put a 10-12mm nut in there to hold it, it seems to make things a little easier.  Just don't forget it pull it out afterwards.