Ijnection Pump Main Shaft Play Tolerence

[orbitald]

I have an TD injection pump 068130081F on my 1.9 AAZ that has been leaking out of the cold start shaft seal. When removing the pump I noticed that the main shaft had some side to side play which I measured at .635mm. I have read in other posts that the tolerance is .2mm but I wanted to check and make sure that .635 is too much play to use. I have also read that there are no main shaft bearings or bushings in this type of pump and that the only option is to get a new case. Is that true? Has anybody milled the old case and inserted a bushing? How do I find the part number for the case on this pump?

Thanks,

David R.
Oakland CA

[burn_your_money]

There are 2 brass? bushings in the case that can be pressed out and replaced. I think the Bosch number is 0 460 400 004 but it's been a while.

0.635mm sounds excessive. Where are you measuring from?

[CRSMP5]

rule of thumb... if you see it move its too loose... you positive it not shaft seal leaking vs adv? does not take much to leak.. takes only little more to loose pump prime...

[orbitald]

Here is a photo of my measurement setup.



(Sorry for the blurry photo)

I measured up and down play to be about .635mm.

I'm pretty sure it was leaking from the cold start lever as it was dripping from that side of the pump not the front although if I replace the main shaft bushings I will replace the seal there too.

Is there any instructions, procedure, service manual, or help available to replace the main shaft bushings?

Thanks again!

David

[CRSMP5]

you gotta take it 100% apart.... not screw up the voodoo.. and get all the voodoo back in.... any "mess up" = new pump.. as the parts that get damaged cost more... i still not taken one apart... and been screwing with them pre licence.. and owned diesels since 89... when i got it... so one day.. ill go visit someone.. till that day.. it can only cost me more.. so if i  both up they can say so..

[orbitald]

Thanks CRSMP5. I've looked around on the forum and see that not many tread into these waters but what is there to loose? If the pump is not usable as-is then why not try and fix it.

I remember seeing a Bosch VE service manual available but the links were always dead. Might someone have that manual they could send me?

Thanks again!

David

[Toby]

It is important to remember that "too much" for the factory does not mean any part is unserviceable. Remember that the factory spec for IDI compression is 490 psi. Below that they say you need a rebuild.

If the IP worked when you took it off, I would reseal it and run it. The IP shaft only spins the lift pump before sturning the business end of the IP through an universal joint affair, so slop in the shaft has little effect on anything except leaks. A good seal at the shaft is all that is required.

BTW, I suspect your measurement is off. .635 mm is about .026". That is a tight spark plug gap. The shaft would rattle in the bore when you shake the pump at that amount of clearance. Make sure the test indicator is firmly attached to the IP. If it is not affixed to the pump itself your measurement is likely off.

Also, test indicators are normally used to test less than .005"-.010". Any chance you are really measuring .063 mm. At .635 the shaft would click in the bore if you wiggle it.

[orbitald]

Thanks for the comments Toby. I'm certain that I over tightened the timing belt as I previously changed the pump myself and did not know exactly what I was doing. Because of this my timing belt ran to close to the shield and wore itself away until it skipped a few teeth and a valve hit a lifter damaging the head. I replaced the head about a month ago. Its a classic beginner mistake that has cost me too much already but I enjoy working on it and learning along the way. Its an expensive education though.

Last week I noticed a leak in the pump and while inspecting it I saw that the pump sprocket looked a bit wobbly.

The dial indicator in the photo is indeed firmly attached to the pump housing and is quite solid. I tested the side to side play a few times and it truly is .635 mm (.025").

Yesterday I tried to run a spare pump (in unknown condition) that was sitting on the shelf for a couple of years. (see thread "Spare Injection Pump has Super Fast Idle") but it needs some help as well.

I've ordered a working pump from somebody on the list so I have something to drive.

As I now have two pumps that need service I'm going to go ahead and try to repair them myself. I know I may screw them up but they are worthless to me as they are and its costs a pretty penny to have someone else rebuild them.

[TylerDurden]

I read on the interwebz that the bushing needs to be reamed precisely, using special jigs.

My local shop will install and ream a bushing to the shaft diameter for ~$50, if I bring them the empty case and mainshaft... maybe a shop in your area will also.

[fatmobile]

 I wouldn't think up and down would be where most of the slop would show up, as the belt pulls the sprocket inward some.
 .001" is what they get reamed to..
Bushings are very cheap,.. and $50 to have them reamed sounds like a good deal; if you can pull a pump apart and put it back together.

[CRSMP5]

honestly... as your learning curve prooves expensive... maybe talking to a person like libby on a rebuild/fix of your 2 pumps into 1? if you damage the i part thats $$ value of pump then you have 0 value.. but if those good in both.. the extra has some value.. and you know your pumps been done right... vs a ticking pin pulled grenade...

you also have no idea what else to look for when inside it ... it really is a specialized thing... and i give props to those who have it figured out..

[orbitald]

Good idea!  For those looking into Bosch VW pumps I've put together a list of links of information I have run into in the last week or so. Hopefully folks find some of this interesting and helpful although its not all for VW TD pumps and some of it is more historic or theoretical in nature. And there is some stuff for TDi pumps too. There is more stuff on youtube I have not assembled yet.

Bosch VE Manual
http://gershon.ucoz.com/BOSCH/DIESEL/pumpsVE/Bosch_VE_Pumps.pdf

Rebuilding Bosch VE
http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pump/-Rebuild

BOSCH VE GUIDES -
11mm Hybrid Bosch Pump + Gov Mod: Peugeot 306
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-212.html

Bosch Pump Setup and Tuning: Peugeot 306
http://94.23.248.6/forum/thread-145.html

Governor Shimming: Peugeot 306
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-79.html

Bosch VE Video Guides: Peugeot 306
http://94.23.248.6/forum/thread-2398.html
Maximum Throttle: Peugeot 306
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-13569.html?highlight=bosch

Pump change video guide: Peugeot 306
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-2145.html?highlight=bosch

Bosch Pump Number Guide: Peugeot 306
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-2942.html?highlight=bosch

- LDA Rotating: Peugeot 306
http://youtu.be/6zPnjE3neoM

- Governor Modifications non cradle (no use really): Peugeot 306
http://youtu.be/3wSkV-5ozWA

- Governor Modifications Cradle: Peugeot 306
http://youtu.be/eaC7LhNhNf8

- A cut away diagram of a bosch VE Govnor Cradle in action Pretty Cool: Peugeot 306
http://youtu.be/6j0vrfaXPmw

Tdi Injection Pump Tuning Tips: LDA Tips
http://dividingcreekimports.com/TdiInjectionPumpTuning.html

Appropedia:
http://www.appropedia.org/Bosch_VE

Bosch VE Injector Pump Governor Spring Swap: The 1989-1993 Cummins Bosch VE injector pump:
http://dieselconversion.com/knowledgebase/Performance-Tips/1989-1993-Cummins-Performance-Tips

1993cummins: bosch-ve-pump
http://rotordesign.com/1993cummins/category/bosch-ve-pump/page/3/


PDF Material

Replacing the Rear Seal on the VE Injector Pump
http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/30/89/55928930/documents/Resealing%20the%20VE%20Injector%20Pump.pdf

Injection pump removal, disassembly, cleaning, reassembly, and installation
http://zaruserv.uta.edu/Jetta/Injection%20pump%20cleaning.pdf

AAZ Injection Pump Manual Transmission - DBW LLC
http://www.dbwllc.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/AAZ_Injection_Pump_Manual_Transmission.pdf

BOSCH VE injection pump pressure regulating valve adjustment and repair
http://www.dbwllc.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/VE_Pressure_regulator_Repair.pdf
Mechanical Diesel Injection
http://www.disa.it/pdf/03HystoryOfDieselFuelInj.pdf

The American Society of Mechanical Engineers
ROTARY DISTRIBUTOR DIESEL FUEL INJECTION PUMP
http://www.ig-smz.de/sites/TGG/JDEP/historie.pdf

ESP_an_KSB_abdichten_12-04 (german)
Sealing the diesel Injection pump to the Wave of cold start
http://www.t3-infos.de/images/ESP_an_KSB_abdichten_12-04.pdf

tuning the Injection Pump of Land Rover Tdi Engines
http://www.landroverweb.com/Pdf-files/Tuning_Land_Rover_Tdi_engines_Rev_2.pdf

Einspritzpumpen Systeme (german)
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/470/bbm%253A978-3-8348-8664-4%252F1.pdf?auth66=1379528387_3a7ee0c27fbd59dc23cd01f1009eedda&ext=.pdf

bosch dist pump
http://www.cnctechnw.com/PDF/BoschDistPump.pdf

Distributor Type Metering
http://transportation.centennialcollege.ca/oduffy/fuels/hd%20fuels%203/distributor.pdf

Diesel Engine Management Systems Index: Bosch VE with EDC
http://www.tuneserv.co.za/Diesel%20Engine%20Management%20Systems.pdf

[CRSMP5]

id prefer a day/meet up with group of people.. few pumps and someone who knows what they are doing.. id pay for a day of learning... lots of info out there.. learning from someone the little tips/tricks/what to look for.. to me thats the value..

[orbitald]

It sure would be great to get some personal instruction but I'm not holding my breath as most people who know any thing about these pumps are super busy. But if someone wants to come out here to sunny Oakland and teach us I'm happy to organize it.

Here are a few more good links. The first two give fairly good diss-assembly / assembly instructions for the Bosch Kiki VE with and without altitude compensator along with instructions for other in-line pumps too. The third is for the 5 cylinder bosch VE pump.

Warning: the first link is a large .pdf file

Assembly Instructions Bosch Kiki Inline and VE Pumps (70mb Large File)
http://www.4x4.ee/docs/nissan-SD-dieselengines/sd-3of3.pdf

ENGINE FUEL & EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM: VE Pump assembly / diss-assembly (15mb)
http://woollett.net.nz/static/4WD/GQY60servicemanual/EC.PDF

VWBus T4 AAB Motor 5 Cylinder Diesel (12mb)
http://www.abstract-media.de/T4/Einspritzpumpe_Ausbauen_Abdichten_Einbauen.pdf

[745 turbogreasel]

I've done it successfully, but don't know that I have much to teach.  If you've rebuilt a carb and an auto trans you won't see anything new inside an IP.
Be sure to mark every shaft and arm you remove.
Santa Cruz isn't so far from Oakland I guess.