Yet another timing question, is my pump retarded?

[VTPSD]

I have a 91 ecodiesel that I acquired about 4 months ago. It runs great, has started every time even in a couple mornings in the 20F range. It has 240k on it and is getting about 45mpg on average. I am thinking that my pump could use a bit more advance, and I was thinking about giving it the “hillybilly timing” procedure. I am just looking for a sanity check here. The car starts and runs well, but always wants the cold start lever pulled to start, even when warm. It will start without it but needs to crank about twice as long as it seems like it should. When I pull the cold start lever when the engine is fully warm the idle bumps up a bit, but there is no clattering whatsoever. I am thinking this means it could use a bit more static advance. I don’t have a 500psi compression gauge, so I am not sure about compression, but it uses no oil and seems healthy to me. Am I on the right track thinking it might be a bit retarded. I think the previous owner said he set it to factory timing specs with a dial. Should I sack up and advance it a bit?

[VTPSD]

just to add, i believe my fuel screw is turned up a bit, a throttle blip will produce some black smoke and the cap is off the screw. The car has no cat, and only a resonator, the rear muffler is straight piped. Also, I build a custom airbox with cone filter so i could hear that little k14 whistle to me.

[745 turbogreasel]

Mark the pump and bracket, then try it?

[VTPSD]

that was my plan 
advance to clack, then back off some?

[TylerDurden]

Yep.

If you wanna get all scientific, you could take timing gauge before/after readings, but the proof is in the running.

[VTPSD]

well, i got her all warmed up and made a line, i advanced it little by little and i ended up reaching the stop and never heard any marble noise? Even with the cold start handle pulled it only makes a hint of a rattle....the only thing i can imagine is that the pump is retarded by one tooth on the belt? I think i might retard the pump back and advance it on the belt one tooth and try again, does this make sense?
It does seem to have a bit more pep and now it starts without the cold start handle, so i think im going in the right direction.

[TylerDurden]

Makes sense, but that also reinforces the notion of getting a timing gauge reading at your start-point.

(The reading is an absolute number, not just "where it was before I advanced it a tooth and a smidgen". )

[8v-of-fury]

This is true, unless you are sure you are spot on with the belt (which you should be if you did it right ) you will never know if you are one tooth too retarded. I have not tried it personally, so I do not know if being a tooth retarded would allow you to reach the proper timing setting.

Now if you cannot get it to clack, you likely have some issues. One could be your definition of clack, the other could be a tooth retarded.. or maybe even you are running some extremely poor diesel fuel, causing everything to be out of whack.

If you set the engine to TDC, can you get the pump lock in?

[VTPSD]

Unfortunately i dont have the pump lock or cam lock tools. The previous owner did the timing belt last year, and he has the tools and has owed and fixed vw diesels since the early 80's, so i think he would have gotten it right (but you never know). Sounds like i need to invest in the locking tools. I always fuel up at the same place, a shell station right by the interstate that has lots of truck traffic. I am quite sure the fuel is good. Not sure what the issue here is, the car runs well and gets great mileage, so not sure. I guess i cant go further until i verify the pulley positions.
I am pretty sure i know what the clack sounds like, been around farm tractors my whole life, and consider myself a fairly well rounded mechanic.

[bbob203]

hardware store for locking tools. craftsman 11mm 1/4" drive socket for pump and a brass door hinge for cam.

[bbob203]

definitely sounds like your a tooth off. if your a tooth off sligtly detension belt and slio the pulley a tooth in the right direction. and re tension.

[jboogie13]

when you get your timing set, youw ill be happy with the slight advance of the pump, i did it and the car runs very nicely 

[VTPSD]

I drove the car into work this AM (drive consists of a 3500' climb over a mountain) and it has noticeable extra power, and runs much more crisply (if that makes sense). Timing was defiantly retarded, and may still be a hair retarded. I will check cam timing and hopefully find that the pump is a tooth off, that would be sweet. I am already much happier with how the car runs, I noticed the coolant was quite a bit cooler at the top of the climb too!

[millertime]

Glad to hear that.  I'm having a similar issue.  My car vibrates real bad if my cold start handle is in.  I need to check my timing.  I hope im a tooth off because i have the pump rotated all the way into the block and I still need the cold start handle out for a smooth idle.  I couldn't figure out using the gauge, maybe ill try it again and post some pics, see where I'm screwing up.  I have an eco also with a similar exhaust set up.  

[bbob203]

Glad to hear that.  I'm having a similar issue.  My car vibrates real bad if my cold start handle is in.  I need to check my timing.  I hope im a tooth off because i have the pump rotated all the way into the block and I still need the cold start handle out for a smooth idle.  I couldn't figure out using the gauge, maybe ill try it again and post some pics, see where I'm screwing up.  I have an eco also with a similar exhaust set up.  

try adjusting your idle up see f that changes anything.