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Timing the IP with an indicator
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 11:44
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OK - just for grins, say you wanted to use a dial indicator cause you had zero experience and you bought a cheezy China IP indicator timing set and you installed it making sure the pin slid freely in the adaptor bore and all but you installed it with some pre-load and it didn't move at all when you rotated the engine.
Then you "felt" inside the hole of the IP with a pin and could tell that there was a smaller hole up inside and started wondering if your indicator pin may be too large to go into said hole.
Is the smaller hole the one that the pin needs to go into and if so, what diameter does the indicator pin need to be?
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#1
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 12:46
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I'll answer my own post as it may help someone else - I made a pin from a piece of .09 stainless steel welding rod. Actual OD is .0915"
I tapped one end 4-40 cause that's the smallest die I have - it's not a match to the metric threads in the metric dial indicator, but it works.
OK, I'm getting a reading now when I turn the crank
Now I am ready to adjust the pump but I can't get to the two 13 mm nuts through the pulley!
One lines up (sort of) to one of the larger holes [BOLT 2] but I still cant fit the socket on it as it's too far off center. The other [BOLT 1] lines up with the smaller hole (opposite the one that the lock-pin goes into, and there's no way I'll get to that one.
What gives - do I have the wrong pulley?
I should mention that the arrow on the pulley is pointing to the center mark on top of the IP so I think I'm close on the timing and have the pulley installed correctly.
Also, I have the tin covers on which I never had before and I believe the IP is from a 1.6. Giles said it will still work fine but it may be the reason the bolts aren't lining up.
Either I have the wrong pulley, wrong pump, can't run the tin covers or something, please someone let me know
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#2
by
MusicMech
on 08 Jun, 2013 13:02
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On mine (1.9 AAZ) when the engine was at TDC the smaller hole was on the other side, 180 degrees away from yours, and lined up with the locking hole in the backing plate, which you can see is through one of the larger holes in your sprocket from your picture. Are you sure the engine is on the correct stroke? Mine lined up with the 3 bolts pretty easily once the locking holes were lined up. Getting my injection pump to actually rotate was another story...
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#3
by
MusicMech
on 08 Jun, 2013 13:04
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Actually, upon closer inspection of your picture, I just realized that the hole in the sprocket by the locking hole in the backing plate also looks to be smaller... mine only has one small hole and the rest are the larger ones.
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#4
by
damac
on 08 Jun, 2013 13:19
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Never had a 1.9 is it supposed to be layed out like a 1.6?
I was putting an engine together recently and found an oddball injection pump bracket that had 2 open holes for 2 studs to come through the other side of the injection pump which I have never seen before and would want to avoid so luckily I had other parts to make it happen.
This bracket was also shaped differently at the alternator end so I couldn't fit the timing belt so it went in the junk pile.
I have also seen injection pulleys that I found I couldn't use because they lacked larger holes for a puller.
I have never had a problem putting a pump lock pin and getting to the lowest bolt however. You can rock the pump a tad one way or the other, did you try using a small profile socket with extension?
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#5
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 13:26
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Thanks for the replies.
Both the locking pin hole and the one that's 1800 (labeled HOLE 1 in the photo) are the same size.
BTW, "HOLE 1" is lined up and on the same side as the keyway.
Even the larger one isn't large enough to get the 13 mm socket straight on to.
I've already removed the sprocket and am getting ready to "customize" it on the mill.
While I get it set up to mill out the holes, I'll keep checking back here to see if someone has an idea what's going on.
I think I have a 1.6 sprocket and 1.9 tin and IP bracket. The original bracket was also from a 1.6.
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#6
by
CRSMP5
on 08 Jun, 2013 14:35
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mk1/mk2 only had 1 nut... 6' o clock position.. rest were bolts...
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#7
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 14:46
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mk1/mk2 only had 1 nut... 6' o clock position.. rest were bolts...
That would explain it. I don't know the history of the engine but I have replaced the "original" bracket which was simply a plate (I believe from a 1.6) with the proper 1.9 IP bracket. This was all in an effort to install the TB covers which it never had before.
I've milled the sprocket and now I can access the two nuts just fine. It's not balanced now but it's so small and turns relatively slowly so I don't think it matters.
I set the timing at 1.0 mm as a baseline. Maybe I should start at 0.8 (per Vince Waldon - TD 1.9) - I guess we'll see. At the rate I'm going, I'll be a few more weekends before I turn it over
Thanks a bunch.
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#8
by
libbydiesel
on 08 Jun, 2013 15:26
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All you have to do to access the nuts behind the pulley is rotate the sprocket so the large holes line up with them. No need to imbalance the pulley. FWIW, vw DID balance the pulleys. When they went to the version with just one timing pin hole, they adjusted the size of the larger holes so they balance.
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#9
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 15:39
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All you have to do to access the nuts behind the pulley is rotate the sprocket so the large holes line up with them. No need to imbalance the pulley. FWIW, vw DID balance the pulleys. When they went to the version with just one timing pin hole, they adjusted the size of the larger holes so they balance.
Hmm - well it's not balanced now
.
Maybe the timing procedure is too complex for my simple head but I didn't want to rotate anything (except the pump body) once I had the dial reading my target number.
That said, I now realize that I could have tightened the one accessible bolt near the top and the one in the rear of the pump. Then rotated the pulley as you suggested.
Should I get a new pulley?
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#10
by
CRSMP5
on 08 Jun, 2013 16:09
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damb lightbulbs...
if your worried on balance.. build a "prop" balancer.. rod thru middle.. something in v shape at both ends to support the rod.. give it a spin and see what side points down.. thats heavy side... now with some clay.. add to light side.. once it no longer ends in same place.. remove weight.. weigh.. then remove that amount of material from the other side.. or weld/add weight see what i say??
i cannot say how balanced a pump pully is.. vs cam/intermediate shaft.. the holes are too different in size to be perfect IMO.. no drillings/weight added.. i just cannot see it..
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#11
by
ORCoaster
on 08 Jun, 2013 17:26
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I'll answer my own post as it may help someone else - I made a pin from a piece of .09 stainless steel welding rod. Actual OD is .0915"
I tapped one end 4-40 cause that's the smallest die I have - it's not a match to the metric threads in the metric dial indicator, but it works.
OK, I'm getting a reading now when I turn the crank
Now I am ready to adjust the pump but I can't get to the two 13 mm nuts through the pulley!
One lines up (sort of) to one of the larger holes [BOLT 2] but I still cant fit the socket on it as it's too far off center. The other [BOLT 1] lines up with the smaller hole (opposite the one that the lock-pin goes into, and there's no way I'll get to that one.
What gives - do I have the wrong pulley?
I should mention that the arrow on the pulley is pointing to the center mark on top of the IP so I think I'm close on the timing and have the pulley installed correctly.
Also, I have the tin covers on which I never had before and I believe the IP is from a 1.6. Giles said it will still work fine but it may be the reason the bolts aren't lining up.
Either I have the wrong pulley, wrong pump, can't run the tin covers or something, please someone let me know
Gizmo----- STOP___
Maybe too late but can be corrected.
The 1.6 I have on my car has this same pulley and you appear to have it all correctly set up if indeed you are at TDC. There is only one 13 mm nut you have to loosen and that is the one accessible through hole two. If you have the same timing belt cover I do you will see a rubber grommet in that position and I generally just pop that out throw a deep socket on and back off the tension about 7 half turns.
FOR ALL the other bolts, YES bolts I loosen them with either the socket, for the one at the bottom of the pump and a long box end for the two up top. I always save the one on the front of the IP pump for last as that it the one that I use to tighten first once I get my number on the dial gauge to where I want it. My pump moves pretty smoothly and easily so a simple meat of the hand on the Out bolt does any adjusting I need to do.
Now that you have taken some of the weight off the one side of the pulley you need to make the same sized cut on the one opposite the face. That should keep you balanced. Note there are numbers on one side of the pulley and not on the other and that is the side that you have to the keyway. Correct? Just remember that and you will always get the right small hole when on TDC and not be 180 out.
Sorry I took a late lunch I could have saved you the work. Had Drywall mud to finish.
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#12
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 17:55
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I'll answer my own post as it may help someone else - I made a pin from a piece of .09 stainless steel welding rod. Actual OD is .0915"
I tapped one end 4-40 cause that's the smallest die I have - it's not a match to the metric threads in the metric dial indicator, but it works.
OK, I'm getting a reading now when I turn the crank
Now I am ready to adjust the pump but I can't get to the two 13 mm nuts through the pulley!
One lines up (sort of) to one of the larger holes [BOLT 2] but I still cant fit the socket on it as it's too far off center. The other [BOLT 1] lines up with the smaller hole (opposite the one that the lock-pin goes into, and there's no way I'll get to that one.
What gives - do I have the wrong pulley?
I should mention that the arrow on the pulley is pointing to the center mark on top of the IP so I think I'm close on the timing and have the pulley installed correctly.
Also, I have the tin covers on which I never had before and I believe the IP is from a 1.6. Giles said it will still work fine but it may be the reason the bolts aren't lining up.
Either I have the wrong pulley, wrong pump, can't run the tin covers or something, please someone let me know
Gizmo----- STOP___
Maybe too late but can be corrected.
The 1.6 I have on my car has this same pulley and you appear to have it all correctly set up if indeed you are at TDC. There is only one 13 mm nut you have to loosen and that is the one accessible through hole two. If you have the same timing belt cover I do you will see a rubber grommet in that position and I generally just pop that out throw a deep socket on and back off the tension about 7 half turns.
FOR ALL the other bolts, YES bolts I loosen them with either the socket, for the one at the bottom of the pump and a long box end for the two up top. I always save the one on the front of the IP pump for last as that it the one that I use to tighten first once I get my number on the dial gauge to where I want it. My pump moves pretty smoothly and easily so a simple meat of the hand on the Out bolt does any adjusting I need to do.
Now that you have taken some of the weight off the one side of the pulley you need to make the same sized cut on the one opposite the face. That should keep you balanced. Note there are numbers on one side of the pulley and not on the other and that is the side that you have to the keyway. Correct? Just remember that and you will always get the right small hole when on TDC and not be 180 out.
Sorry I took a late lunch I could have saved you the work. Had Drywall mud to finish.
Mmmm - drywall mud - fun! Sanding it is even more fun.
What you are saying about "bolt" access is possibly true on a 1.6 steel bracket but my bracket is cast and there is no access from the backside.
Both of the nuts (on bracket/studs) in the photo
must be accessed via a socket through the pulley (which I can now do quite easily
). Had I waited for libby's post about simply rotating the pulley to get to them, I'd have been fine (by just tightening the one upper bolt with a wrench to hold my setting).
I could remove it again, calculate how many grams I lost with the larger hole, and spot-face around the smaller (alignment) hole to offset the difference. Granted, it will never be perfectly balanced, but it would be better than it is now.
That said, I'll probably just leave it as is. . .
I just ran a quick calc using the shavings off the mill (material removed).
There is about 35 grams of metal and if that is spinning at 5,000 RPM that equals about 148 Ft/lbs of force!
I better not put this spendy pump through that torture and get a new pulley
.
Is there a specific pulley for the 1.9 or should I just get another (two small hole) like the one I had?
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#13
by
Gizmoman
on 08 Jun, 2013 18:15
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If you've been reading this post you'll understand why I'm looking for a new IP sprocket.
Anyhoo, the part number for an AAZ 1.9 IP sprocket is 028130111C (parts Base.org).
Jim Ellis wants nearly 80 bucks, World Impex wants 70, and our buddy Hans want's 18.00. I can't find it on Rock Auto. I'm looking on Parts Geek but no luck so far.
Would you buy the 18 dollar one?
Here's a photo from Han's site (getting to where I just hate even going there)
Not sure if this is "balanced". What I'm most worried about is if the tapered bore is off even a tiny amount and it slips - by-by engine.
Also, when I calculated the centrifugal force, I used 5,000 RPM.
EDITI believe I should have used 1250 (4:1 ratio) which changes the load from 148 Ft/lbs of force to 9.3.Correction: Ratio is 2:1 - 22 teeth on crank, 44 teeth on IP sprocket (and cam as well). Force ends up around 22 ft/lb @2500 RPM
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#14
by
wolf_walker
on 08 Jun, 2013 18:50
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Fwiw that looks just like an ancient 1.6 one decorating my shop wall. Holes and all.
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