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Will a NA motor run ok with a turbo but no upgraded pump?
by
masterbeavis
on 01 May, 2013 21:14
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I know the old Chevy and International (Ford) diesels would make more power with a turbo and simply turning up the stock pump. Will a 1.6 NA theoretically run under the same concept? I susoebt that a turbo alone it won't make the same power as if the pump were added too, but it would be better than nothing right?
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#1
by
wolf_walker
on 01 May, 2013 23:25
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Pretty much. The Eco-Diesel they sold was just that, no fuel enrichment dealy on the pump, and it had a cat.
Turbo with no more fuel will cut down on smoke. You can turn up the overall fueling on the NA pump some,
it'll just tend to smoke bad before boost comes on. It's been done, a lot.
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#2
by
Bugsy_malone 666
on 04 May, 2013 03:32
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The strange thing is, several French cars have a 1.9TD which has a bosch pump and no enrichment and they are not slow!
I think it could depend on your choice of turbo also, but at the very least you will end up with more power and something that runs cleaner
I cant remember where, but on a similar thread I am sure someone said the NA pump actually has better low down power, maybe coupled with a turbo from a 1.9TD means turbo comes in at about 1900rpm full boost so it goes well. equally it has been said you can make an NA almost perform like a GTI.
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#3
by
justiz00
on 04 May, 2013 07:20
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That is how my car currently is (NA-T) 81 MK1 w/ME jetta engine. When I first put the turbo system on there (no pump) it was noticeably quicker on acceleration. With stock fueling I could still run 9-10 lbs of boost even with the stock NA exhaust elbow and pipe. I have since turned the fuel a little and it will bring the boost on a lot faster now but my cruise EGT also went up.
Added: As far as smoke is concerned, there is some visible when flooring it until boost comes on, then a puff when shifting up high. Otherwise at cruise there are no visible particulates.
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#4
by
wolf_walker
on 04 May, 2013 09:51
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The more turbo-oriented folks can correct me if need, but my understanding of the LDA on the turbo pumps is that it not so much adds fuel upon
sensing boost, as it removes fuel when boost is not present. As in, you can crank up a NA pump to produce nearly as much fuel as a stock turbo pump,
but it will be overfueling considerably at off or low boost times. Which makes lots of smoke, high EGT's, etc, etc.
Diesels like turbo's, they are almost never a negative.
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#5
by
Alcaid
on 05 May, 2013 00:31
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NA and ECO pumps are 8mm while true TD pumps have 9mm piston so there is less fuel available in 'em.
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#6
by
TylerDurden
on 05 May, 2013 04:20
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My NA and TD pumps are all 9mm plunger. e.g. 460 494 XXXX
The only 8mm pump I have is an ECO... The ECO camplate has a 2.55mm lift, so it can deliver about the same amount of fuel, at higher pressure.
9mm pump: (3.14 * 4.52) * 2.19 = 1.3925115 cm3
ECO pump: (3.14 * 4.02) * 2.55 = 1.28112 cm3
That's about an 8% difference in pump output at max fuelling (which you can do, if you like to make clouds of soot).
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#7
by
wolf_walker
on 05 May, 2013 17:29
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I'd like to hear more about the relationship between cam plate lift/angle and it's effect and interplay with injector pop pressure and nozzle angle if anyone is in the mood to.
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#8
by
vanbcguy
on 06 May, 2013 07:47
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My NA and TD pumps are all 9mm plunger. e.g. 460 494 XXXX
The only 8mm pump I have is an ECO... The ECO camplate has a 2.55mm lift, so it can deliver about the same amount of fuel, at higher pressure.
9mm pump: (3.14 * 4.52) * 2.19 = 1.3925115 cm3
ECO pump: (3.14 * 4.02) * 2.55 = 1.28112 cm3
That's about an 8% difference in pump output at max fuelling (which you can do, if you like to make clouds of soot).
Total fuel volume is just one part of it - the larger plunger can deliver the same volume of fuel in a shorter amount of time as it takes less of the total plunger stroke to get the job done. A lot of the challenge is getting the fuel injected fast enough.
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#9
by
TylerDurden
on 06 May, 2013 18:14
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Might be why they made the ECO camplate peak a few degrees earlier than the TD.
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#10
by
wolf_walker
on 06 May, 2013 18:30
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Do why the smaller plunger on the eco?
Some pollution voodoo?
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#11
by
theman53
on 06 May, 2013 18:44
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From what I gather, pretty much. The Eco wasn't economical, it was ecological in the EPA's eyes. They did a bunch to tone down emmisions so they could keep selling the 1.6 in the USA.
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#12
by
wolf_walker
on 06 May, 2013 23:12
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Any info about the 1Y or the AAZ camplate floating around?
I would imagine the AAZ piece is different with the two stage injectors, but
I'm curious what a late NA IDI (1Y) had compared to a 1.6.
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#13
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 07 May, 2013 22:45
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Any info about the 1Y or the AAZ camplate floating around?
I would imagine the AAZ piece is different with the two stage injectors, but
I'm curious what a late NA IDI (1Y) had compared to a 1.6.
its been said that the AAZ/TDI camplate has 4mm of lift..
the 1.6 plate supposedly has 2.3mm of lift..
i think jeremy might have had some actual hard numbers on the subject as well..
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#14
by
8v-of-fury
on 10 May, 2013 20:40
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I have measured many AAZ pumps at 3.13-3.15mm of lift, and the 1.6 NA and TD at 2.26-2.30mm of cam lobe lift.