Author Topic: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.  (Read 9439 times)

Reply #45May 16, 2013, 01:10:59 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2013, 01:10:59 pm »
I would mention that I have removed the crank sprocket from many 1.6 engines.  I have seen where the earliest real woodruff key version has worn and damaged the crank.  I have not seen a single instance where the cast in keyway has failed with the v-belt system EXCEPT where the cam timing has slipped and the pistons have been hammering the valves.  If your crank keyway failed on your 1.6 it is most likely that the cam slipped FIRST and the added stress of driving the cam over valves that were pushing on the pistons is what caused the sprocket to fail, not the other way around.  If you had heeded the initial warning, stopped running your engine and checked the timing before continued hammering you may have come away with considerably less damage.  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 04:26:49 pm by libbydiesel »

Reply #46May 16, 2013, 05:36:10 pm

Bugsy_malone 666

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2013, 05:36:10 pm »
you may have called it, but whether you knew why is a different matter.

I had this same problem recently with smoke and poor running etc and that was the fuel pump timing. For the most part all I got was people ***ing on about bad fuel and veg oil, nothing of the sort, pump timing sorted it, fine for 500 miles and I drove it home fine.

Its the fact that something actually broke, a common part failure outside of my control is the PITA. In realistic terms, the moment I fired it up it was doomed, so theres no points for being right on this one. I think good job I wasnt doing 70 down the road though.

I said to stop running it and check timing.  Pistons were hitting valves.  You decided to argue against checking the timing and went along with 3 pages of the thread.  When you mentioned that you drove it with it running that poorly and had no concern it was clear that I was wasting my time trying to help and would reserve any further input for the fun of the "I told you so" and the resultant back-and-forth banter.  Thanks for the accommodation.   ;D

Even if I had stopped running it and checked the timing, whos to say I would have found anything? There is the potential for the timing to have been right.

 I havent driven it anywhere running 'poorly' its been running fine since I reset the pump timing about 4-6 weeks ago when for no reason it was running rubbish and getting hard to start but some adjustment to the fuel pump fixed this issue. Also a bad hydraulic tappet with a bit of rattle on 3, I replaced the whole set, after doing a load of research before putting the cam back in I even tightened the cam end bolt up just slightly over 'book spec' (only a couple of ft/lbs)as people on various places on the internet had suggested that this should stop any slipping with the lack of keyway on the cam. So the van has been running fine except on WVO, which seems to make it run slightly less well. But when I ran it home last time I drove it, no problems and a good 5 miles purge time before shutting it off. Start it up after that day and it runs awful.

I appreciate help diagnosing a problem, but are you really suggesting if you were running alternative fuel, you'd start by checking the timing (which takes almost a day to do on this van as its impossible to access the flywheel timing mark.) vs looking at the fuel system and the potential for a failed pump?

However I think theres alot more to it than me not taking peoples advice. The engine was running, but on 2 cylinders, the other 2 were missing and timing tends to cause a different issue as I found with the pump timing out a few weeks ago, same symptoms but the pump timing was out. I had that same hammering before and it was nothing to do with the cam timing and was spot on, it was actually a bad hydro lifter.

The problems cant be soley diagnosed with the timing because of the alternative fuel I have also been using, adding the possibilty of pump sticking, this brought me onto a possible theory after seeing about the issues with the alternators causing this sort of failure on the 1.9s, perhaps the use of the alternative fuel put sufficient stress on the fuel pump to have a similar effect to the alternator?

Either way regardless of whether I took advise or not, after I started it up after that sunday drive home, the engine was pretty much scrap at that stage it seems.

So back in with an aircooled petrol engine for now for 6 months until the winter when I'll look to start a rebuild. I have an NA 1.6 and this TD so I am sure between the 2 I can make something reasonable, but right now with a new house about to rape my bank account I could do without rebuilding this diesel.

Reply #47May 16, 2013, 06:13:47 pm

wolf_walker

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013, 06:13:47 pm »
If I had something with an old VW-D in it that took more than a half hour to check the timing on I'd sell it.   
Or not have a VW-D in it.   :-\

Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become ignorant.
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Reply #48May 16, 2013, 08:37:38 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2013, 08:37:38 pm »
I appreciate help diagnosing a problem, but are you really suggesting if you were running alternative fuel, you'd start by checking the timing (which takes almost a day to do on this van as its impossible to access the flywheel timing mark.) vs looking at the fuel system and the potential for a failed pump?

I would most certainly check cam timing first.  Impossible to access the flywheel timing mark???  It's unimaginable to me that anyone would go to the extensive work of an engine conversion without doing the comparatively insignificant task of making an easily readable TDC marker.  That would be an essential part of any conversion and only add about 10 minutes to the job.  The two easiest installs in a bay would be with an adapter plate from somewhere like Kennedy or to use the diesel vanagon bell housing.  The adapter plates have a hole on the engine side that lets you see a mark on the flywheel and the diesel vanagon bell housing has a readily accessible hole in the bell housing.  What mounting system did you use?  What do you have to do to read the timing mark, pull the engine??

Anyway, the fun of this thread seems exhausted for me.  Have fun with the air-cooled.  Luckily for you the cam and crank are geared together on that one...   ;D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 11:50:01 pm by libbydiesel »

Reply #49May 17, 2013, 05:39:15 am

Bugsy_malone 666

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2013, 05:39:15 am »

Anyway, the fun of this thread seems exhausted for me.  Have fun with the air-cooled.  Luckily for you the cam and crank are geared together on that one...   ;D



The easily readable TDC marker on my mk3 petrol golf is actually on the front pulley, which in a golf is an arse to get to without taking the wheel off, in my van piece of cake. The TDC flywheel marker is actually under the fuel tank area on my bay hence why its hard to reach in and see, with the Vanagon the fuel tank is under the front somewhere and means more room in the engine/gearbox area. I have one of those Kennedy type adaptors, I think its an early one as it only allows fitment of the engine at 15 degrees not 50 degrees as the new plates allow both and there is no access for seeing the TDC mark. Equally with the vanagon the TDC mark is actually on the clutch, not the flywheel meaning there is the possibility of it being manufactured wrong depending on the manufacture.

In the Future when the engine is rebuilt I am going to make sure there are alternative markings on the front that line up with the woodruff slot and pulleys to make it easier as recent timing problems have been a nightmare. I'm also going to look for a bay/vanagon engine hatch to install, which dont seem to be all that cheap! I was also considering using my KEP plate so the engine can bee installed upright so it might be easier to work on, although I suspect not.

Reply #50May 17, 2013, 09:28:45 am

libbydiesel

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2013, 09:28:45 am »
Each of the Kennedy adapters I have seen have a hole on the engine side of the plate by the back of the block by the exhaust manifold.  They use a Kennedy specific flywheel (or driveplate) which has a punched mark on the back which corresponds to TDC.  It is actually the most convenient TDC marker system on any VW diesel I have dealt with as it has the accuracy of being on the larger flywheel and yet is very easily readable while turning the crank by hand.  Checking the cam timing with a Kennedy adapter in a Bay should take any reasonably skilled individual less than 5 minutes.  Please post a pic of the adapter plate at the back of the engine below the exhaust manifold.

Here's one fastened to an ALH in a BAY:


Notice the aqua plug.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 10:50:59 am by libbydiesel »

Reply #51May 17, 2013, 02:21:56 pm

Bugsy_malone 666

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2013, 02:21:56 pm »
Well I am intreaged now, I shall have to investigate. I know my problem will be that I dont have the KEP flywheel, I have a vanagon flywheel on the bus and for my beetle (which I was fitting a golf GTi engine to using this adaptor plate) I was using a passat flywheel.

I'm also wondering what the little threaded bolt hole is just down from the plug as it doesnt bolt up to the gearbox. I'll have to have a look when its dry, as in future I may have my engine fitted this way.

I dont suppose you have more install photos of this particular engine install or is this just a pic you managed to find?

Reply #52May 17, 2013, 02:34:44 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2013, 02:34:44 pm »
I believe that other threaded hole is for installing the engine at the 50° angle.  

That is not my vehicle but I do have an ALH installed in a '91 vanagon @15° using a Kennedy adapter.  Mine is an automatic, tho.  I have also worked on a couple other inline-4s in vanagons that used the KEP system.  I can take some pics of the TDC marker on the driveplate if necessary.  There are also some other labelled degree marks on it that can be helpful for gasser timing.    

I do not believe that the diesel vanagon flywheel will work with the KEP plate.  Regardless, even if the hole is not present in the plate or if an alternative flywheel was used, drilling a similar hole and making a similar TDC mark would not be particularly challenging.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 02:38:24 pm by libbydiesel »

Reply #53May 17, 2013, 05:14:51 pm

Bugsy_malone 666

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Re: So my 1.6TD is running like a dragster, but not in a good way.
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2013, 05:14:51 pm »
Thats interesting to know.

I think the KEP plate and vanagon flywheel might actually work, when doing the conversion I noted that the vanagon bellhousing is 1" deeper than the baywindow camper one, the KEP plate is 1" thick! Flywheel clearance might be an issue, not sure. I think its ok, as I know a guy who put a golf mk3 Gti engine in a karmann ghia and he used the vanagon flywheel and a KEP type adaptor plate (I bought the passat flywheel off him as its a bit big for a ghia gearbox, but not a camper one).

Anyhow, found 5 mins to look at mine tonight shortly after posting, I had never noticed it before but mine does indeed have that same hole in about the same place. I must admit its been a number of years since I looked at that part of it.

I certainly think going forward it would be alot easier to use something like that as I could just look under my valance and see it, but the vanagon one I have at the moment as I said is almost impossible to see.

 

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