Evolution of the IDI injector

[wolf_walker]

Years ago I noticed there was a not well explained discconect in part numbers for VW IDI injectors and/or nozzles.

Bosch sold remans under not just TD and NA, but several NA's and I don't remember
if there were more than one TD spec.  NA11x, NA13x, NA14x, and some others.
VW themselves has a number of PN's for injectors and nozzles, I have a couple of lists
floating around.  Popular wisdom says there's two, NA and TD, and depending on who
you ask you can use NA nozzles in a TD just fine if the break pressure is set to spec.
That spec is only two pressures as well, NA or TD.
On top of that, there are folks that point out one can use either injector in either application
simply by altering the static timing.
And re-builders(certified Bosch shops mind you), most but not all, tend to just lump them as NA or TD.
And some do not.


See where I'm going with this?

What usually happens now when I ask this sort of thing, and I have asked, is a bunch of people give examples
of using x with y and y with x and it being just fine, and some others say nay nay.
But nobody can tell me what the deal really is.
And there is a deal.  Something changed.  I just don't know what exactly.
It has to do with pump changes, as the injectors PN changes coincide with pump changes
I believe I figured out last time I dove into this.  I suspect it was also evolution of the design to
decrease noise and/or emissions.  The two stage AAZ injectors/pump were a later version of this
I believe also and have no experience with.  I know the DNxxx Bosch numbers have to do with
needle valve angle or spray angle or some such and possibly the orifice size.

Here's a hunk of info from one of my notes...

                                                                                      (Nozzle)         (New Assy)
Application     code                                     Rebuilt     Bosch number        Bosch
77-80 1.5L      (CK)                                   NA10X       0-434-250-063   ---------
81-84 NA 1.6L   (CR,JK)                           NA13X       0-434-250-103   ---------
83-85 TD  1.6L  (CY, MD, ME)                  NA11X       0-434-250-103   ---------
85     NA  1.6L (ME                                   NA12X       0-434-250-103   ---------
86-87 TD  1.6L  (MF)                                NA14X       0-434-250-138   0-432-217-163
86-87,90-91 NA  (ME)                              NA14X       0-434-250-138   0-432-217-164
91-92 TD        (1V)                                   NA15X       0-434-250-159   0-432-217-214
96 1.9 (TDI??)  ?    (with timing-->)                   0-433-175-092    0-432-198-811

96 1.9 (TDI??)  ?        (normal-->)                      0-433-175-092    0-432-193-810

97,98 (Canada)  (1.9L)          --------                         0-434-250-169    0-432-217-243

98 1.9 (TDI)        -------         (with)                           0-434-250-169   0-432-193-695

98 1.9 (TDI)        -------       (without)                       0-434-250-169    0-432-193-693

[wolf_walker]

Further, it looks like Bosch is no longer doing reman injectors, this is what I'd always bought, they were cheap and seemed to work OK
in my stock applications.  Now they do new, with what looks like the same Nxxx PN scheme, but for more than twice the cost each, hundred
bucks an injector isn't feasible for these things to me.

[Toby]

Then just change the nozzles yourself. It is best if you have a pop tester, but it is not an absolute requirement. You will just need to be fastidiously clean, even to the dust falling out of your hair. You need to have a sterile field in which to work and lots of WD40 or something like it to flood the parts as you assemble the injector and you will likely be fine. Also anybody working on diesel fuel systems should a bag full of little plastic caps to seal the injectors and IP from intrusion of foreign material. If yo do much work with injectors some caps to go over the business end will prevent you from banging the tip of the pintle in something. $20 should buy you a lifetime supply.

[wolf_walker]

Done that, but which nozzle?
That's the catch, what changed between an 86 jetta nozzle, and an 81 rabbit? Both NA 1.6.

I believe they refined the spray pattern but I have no hard data on how.

How does a 1.6 single stage injector effect my 1.9?  I have an odd Audi 80 diesel pump, what of that? I know that 1.6 didn't have the same Injectors as an 81 rabbit 1.6. Why? I want to understand these things?  There is more going on than just break pressure, and more even than nozzle/pintle size, perhaps the angle of the two, or the holes dome used and some not. Not knowing bugs me.
It hasn't prevented me from changing nozzles and cleaning and balancing, but I can't help thinking it's like a soldier executing an op plan, they still often don't know the big picture even when they handle there part perfectly. I want to understand these things.

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[TylerDurden]

Based mostly on the lack of information to the contrary, I'm assuming that VW IDI pintles stayed mostly the same and the break pressures increased.

There seems to be a tradeoff between emissions and soot: to reduce soot, injector pressure is increased, but that also increases NO_x emissions - hence the catalytic on the ECO models, which had higher break-pressures and timing advance to compensate.

Refer to the 2007 Scania document "greenCarLecture.pdf" (which illustrates DI, but the principles apply to IDI, I rekon).

[wolf_walker]

I have some info, this is the  0434250103 nozzle, application listed below.
I do not have a Bosch DNxxx number for them but would like to.

Basically it's the early NA 1.6 with the non-fast idle pump.

It is supposedly found in the NA13x and NA11x injectors, which interestingly are
both NA and TD, the latter being engine codes CY, MD, ME only 83-85, and 85 includes the first
year US A2 Jetta, I owned one years ago.

I'll post a few more in a moment.

Diesel Fuel Injector Nozzle

Part Notes

Brand:
    Bosch

Manufacturer #:
    0 434 250 103
Application #:
    126 54015
Weight:
    0.23
Application Information

Audi 4000
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

Audi 5000
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1979   L5; 2.0L; 1986cc      
1980   L5; 2.0L; 1986cc      
1981   L5; 2.0L; 1986cc      
1982   L5; 2.0L; 1986cc      
1983   L5; 2.0L; 1986cc      

Volkswagen Dasher
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1981         

Volkswagen Jetta
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1981   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1984   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

Volkswagen Quantum
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1984   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1985   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

Volkswagen Rabbit
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1981   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc; Naturally Aspirated; CR Eng.; Eng. VIN G      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc; Naturally Aspirated; JK Eng.; Eng. VIN G      
1984   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

Volkswagen Rabbit Pickup
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1981   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc; Naturally Aspirated; CR Eng.; Eng. VIN G      

Volkswagen Vanagon
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1982   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1983   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

[wolf_walker]

This is the 0-434-250-063 found in the N10x, 1.5L specific, which
the 1.5L also had a specific pump, "yellow dot" people sometimes call them, and they had a
higher timing spec.  Further making me think timing and nozzles are related, not just break pressure.




Diesel Fuel Injector Nozzle

Part Notes

Brand:
    Bosch

Manufacturer #:
    0 434 250 063
Application #:
    126 54014
Weight:
    0.99

view larger...

Application Information

Volkswagen Dasher
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1979   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      
1980   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      

Volkswagen Rabbit
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1977   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      
1978   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      
1979   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      
1980   L4; 1.5L; 1471cc      

[wolf_walker]

This is the 0-434-250-138, used in the NA14x, I suspect Bosch has lumped this one in
with another part number as my supplier only offers Meyle in this #.

They cut off in late 1990 for the NA jetta, and earlier for the Golf.  No idea why, haven't cross checked OE
pump numbers yet.  Also this nozzle is listed, separately with the same manufacturer # for A2 era TD's.

Diesel Fuel Injector Nozzle

Brand:
    Meyle
Ordered As Part #:
    0434250138
Manufacturer #:
    100 425 0138
Application #:
    126 54002
Weight:
    0.17
Pack Qty:
    PIECE

Application Information

Volkswagen Golf
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1985   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1986   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1987   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1988   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      

Volkswagen Jetta
year    vehicle attributes    part description    position
1985   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1986   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1987   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1988   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1989   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc      
1990   L4; 1.6L; 1588cc; To 12/90      

[wolf_walker]

That leaves 0-433-175-092 and 0-434-250-169 that I know of as unknown IDI nozzle PN's, I think
they are both 1.9 never sold in the US.  Dinner time now and I've had too much to drink to make sense of more part
numbers.

[wolf_walker]

And on a related note, these seem to be 1.9 NA industrial app injectors, are they dual stage?
I can't tell looking at em.  Much google'ing does not tell me if dual stage injectors require
just dual stage delivery valves, or something more to function correctly. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-1-9L-Diesel-Injector-Set-New-Bosch-OEM-/300871426769?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item460d55a2d1&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Volkswagen-Audi-1-6D-1-9D-2-4D-Genuine-OE-Bosch-Diesel-Injector-New-130BAR-/150854136148?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item231f9b7154&vxp=mtr

[Toby]

You clearly have way too much time on your hands.....

25 years ago I bought a lot of nozzles from my local Bosch distributor and I was told that there were only a very small number of different nozzles available for the V/A stuff. They said that virtually ALL VW diesel engines took one nozzle. There were choices, like Brazilian or German, but little else. It seems that the factory only supplied the best/newest version as replacement parts. They said that the VW/A nozzles were the cheapest and least sophisticated nozzles that Bosch made. The MB nozzles were a different number and physically different in very minor detail and more expensive. I can tell from having pop tested a bunch that the MB nozzles had a better, (or at least different)  spray pattern. The cars ran better and put out less soot with the new MB nozzles that with new VW nozzles. IIRC fuel mileage went up a 1/2 mpg, as well. I thought that is was money well spent at the time.

I suspect that Bosch still does only supply the latest tech as service parts. This, of course, means that the different number given a particular nozzle/injector 20 years ago has no meaning today. They also said that there were differences between other motors that used the same nozzles. Perhaps trying to find a Bosch rep that knows diesels and is willing to talk would prove useful. Perhaps I will talk to the injector guy at my local Bosch dealer and rebuild facility when I go by there next week.

Perhaps a better use of your time is to see if there is still a difference between what Bosch calls for in a Mercedes than a Rabbit.  IIRC the MB nozzles of the time had a tiny hole cross drilled through the pintle near the tip. Has anyone else seen this? I have just recently used the last of my NOS nozzles so I have no idea what Bosch is supplying today. I have about 75 injectors or so that I usually just pop test and swap out after cleaning.

I am looking for shims if anybody knows where I can get some for a song. I lost my assortment a while back when my buddy Art got blasted in the side his VW Pickup and killed.

[wolf_walker]

Ironically, the Mercedes guys often prefer the nozzles without the holes you mentioned.  Especially the alternative fuel guys.  Monarch nozzles are popular.    They do still have a nicer pattern, I'm a former Mercedes diesel driver too. Bosch nozzles made in India now, I only have two of the old Germany made 617 ones left.

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