Author Topic: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside  (Read 19451 times)

March 23, 2013, 12:58:01 pm

kaneb

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Hello fellow deezulers!

I just threw this video up on you tube i had collected.  It shows the workings of our little injector pumps! I am not sure how to embed videos here so ill just post the link to my you tube page.
http://youtu.be/9-GSNR7W73M


This leads to my next question.  So we can turn up the max fuel screw for more fuel, we can shim the governor spring for fuel in the top end.  We can tweak and turn or get crazy and grind the boost pin for more fuel.  This is all good help and gives us more ponies but i remember about reading a few years ago on here of a guy who machined down the cam plate on the front side of the pump for a wee bit more advance in the top end which gave gains too or so i thought i read it back a few yrs so could have my facts off.  I'm still wanting to learn more about these pumps so hopefully the gurus chime in.  




« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 08:01:29 pm by 8v-of-fury »


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Reply #1March 23, 2013, 01:59:44 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: How our injector pumps work and questions about tweeking them.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 01:59:44 pm »
The advance curve can definitely be changed - it is controlled by shims, springs and the height of the cap on the advance.  If you look at a TDI pump for instance the cap is much longer, allowing the advance piston to move further.

The problem is - change it to what?  Without a pump dyno all you can do is guess and test.  I don't believe there is really any advance above 4K with the pump in its stock form so in theory allowing it to do more would help it rev in to higher RPM ranges while still being able to burn the fuel in time.

At the extreme end, Giles apparently modifies the internal pump body to allow the timing piston to move even further (there is a limit to how much the roller cage can move before the pin bumps against the pump housing).  But he's got a pump dyno so he can see exactly what he is changing, plus he knows what the settings are for ultimate power. :)  Part of his "formula" is building a lot more dynamic advance in to the pumps.

If you are prepared to be a guinea pig, you definitely can play with the springs / shims / advance cap quite easily.  The hard part will be measuring the results in a consistent manner!
Bryn

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2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #2March 23, 2013, 08:11:48 pm

nwcali6

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Re: How our injector pumps work and questions about tweeking them.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 08:11:48 pm »
The advance curve can definitely be changed - it is controlled by shims, springs and the height of the cap on the advance.  If you look at a TDI pump for instance the cap is much longer, allowing the advance piston to move further.

The problem is - change it to what?  Without a pump dyno all you can do is guess and test.  I don't believe there is really any advance above 4K with the pump in its stock form so in theory allowing it to do more would help it rev in to higher RPM ranges while still being able to burn the fuel in time.

At the extreme end, Giles apparently modifies the internal pump body to allow the timing piston to move even further (there is a limit to how much the roller cage can move before the pin bumps against the pump housing).  But he's got a pump dyno so he can see exactly what he is changing, plus he knows what the settings are for ultimate power. :)  Part of his "formula" is building a lot more dynamic advance in to the pumps.

If you are prepared to be a guinea pig, you definitely can play with the springs / shims / advance cap quite easily.  The hard part will be measuring the results in a consistent manner!

  Said another way, you can put the money out and have Giles build you one, or you can spend far more money and time trying it yourself.. Or just go with the mods you can do and forget about advancing the timing past that point.

Reply #3March 24, 2013, 10:08:24 am

DogDiesel

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Re: How our injector pumps work and questions about tweeking them.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 10:08:24 am »
Thanks for posting the video.  When I took Diesel Engineering 30 years ago, I remember my injector pump calibration class.  Distinctly remember how clean we had to be when we moved a pump to the test stand.  Also remember the price of the stand, and realizing there is a reason everyone cannot do pumps on their test bench.

Also, remember at the time, there were five types of injector systems.  Part of the class leaned forward and described the future where there would be six more types with the onset of electronic injection.  They provided a theory class of an engine without cams and rocker arms, all electronic solenoids, and an flat engine with a piston on each end and no cam.  Today, that is all here.

A funny part of the class on Injector and pump calibration was the test.  The answers were actually on the test.  Behind the questions was shadowed writing and if you knew what to look for, the answers were there.  I aced that test, but there were quite a few that failed in my class.  The questions were tuff, and unless you attended class and studied, you'd blow it with the answers right in front of you.  The advice posted on this forum has been sound.
Wayne

Hello fellow deezulers!

I just threw this video up on you tube i had collected.  It shows the workings of our little injector pumps! I am not sure how to embed videos here so ill just post the link to my you tube page.
http://youtu.be/9-GSNR7W73M .  

Reply #4March 24, 2013, 08:00:43 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: How our injector pumps work and questions about tweeking them.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 08:00:43 pm »
Figured I'd take this thread, add this;

http://www.fostertruck.com/Files/VW_diesel_77-83.pdf

and then sticky it so people can find it easily :).

Reply #5March 25, 2013, 11:35:19 am

kaneb

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 11:35:19 am »
Nice!! I was looking for the thread and was clueless for a second there.  Thanks for the info guys.  I get what your all saying though.  The butt dyno isn't very accurate is it.  I was more or less curious about it.  I have 3 IP's currently and was thinking of tinkering but am gonna change my mind.  The other mods will suffice!

Kane
2004 Tdi sport-daily
1983 Rabbit TD-go kart
www.dasdubbers.org

Reply #6September 25, 2013, 11:59:29 pm

GypsyR

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 11:59:29 pm »
Whatever the link to "fostertruck" was that 8V posted, apparently is no more. It now redirects to LarryB's. Diesel stuff for sale but about none of interest to VW people and no more reference material either.

Reply #7September 26, 2013, 01:44:56 am

billybobf

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Reply #8May 02, 2014, 05:01:42 am

sgnimj96

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 05:01:42 am »
Some older idi engine and pump info

http://home.comcast.net/~jakeru/15dsae.pdf
http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/vwtdsae.shtml

...might want to save a copy
81 Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)               86 Gofl 1.6D                          1985 300TD

Reply #9September 05, 2014, 08:57:14 pm

theman53

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Reply #10December 29, 2014, 12:11:50 pm

theman53

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2014, 12:11:50 pm »
Holy cow, just got this message on facebook...performance pump knowledge here. Advance curve is part but this is huge. Came from Goren the guy who built Jetmugg's record holding pump in the 1.5 land speed truck...
You have K and KF value. KF is when springs are unloaded usually 5-6mm. KF is kolben feder ib german. Piston spring. K is the value that you set with the shim under the plunger. When pump is mounted usually you have 3,6mm K at Bottom. But different lift calls for different K. Often you get it in testplan. For performance i use To set at top lift - 0.2-0.4 mm

and more...

KF is springs unloaded. Rotor out of pump. I set 0.2-0.4 at top lift and then K is what it is. For example if you have 2,8mm lift K is 3.0-3.2. Follow me?


and now even more info...

I put a shim in. Put rotor in an take pump To top lift. Mesaure from plan To plunger under the 3 size plug. If i get for example 0.7 mm i increase the shim with 0.3-0.5 mm


Want to have this info in several places.

Reply #11April 29, 2015, 10:41:12 am

92EcoDiesel Jetta

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 10:41:12 am »
Anyone know why VW idi TD pumps have different delivery valves (shorter) than other pumps such as my EcoDiesel (with longer delivery valves)? Are there any spec differences other than the length?


Just found this great youtube video on VE pump assembly by DrDiesel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n94BvDvDJgM

Reply #12May 14, 2018, 10:23:49 am

sgnimj96

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Re: How our injection pumps work, videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 10:23:49 am »
Here's a great video I picked up somewhere off the web
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpF6hsJWiEw&feature=youtu.be
81 Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)               86 Gofl 1.6D                          1985 300TD

Reply #13May 08, 2019, 01:20:29 pm

hernelE

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How our injection pumps work videos and service manuals inside
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 01:20:29 pm »
Might have to check it out.

How much am I looking for a flash tune just to help with in wanted lag and a little more ooooomff when needed ?

Reply #14January 01, 2020, 08:03:38 am

sgnimj96

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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2020, 08:03:38 am »

internal injection pump pressure

    Quote

Post by Fatmobile Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:38 am
I started reading Hagar's tuning thread and thought it would be a good idea to grab some gems from it and give them their own thread.
Internal pump pressure is a very important part of what he is teaching us so it seems like a great place to start.
From Hagar's hillbilly tuning post, 2nd page near the bottom:

    "Pressure in pump MUST be 43.5 Psi at 1000 RPM engine "
    "Pressure at 2000 Rpm -about 75.4 Psi"

Internal pump pressure will determine how much fuel flows through the "OUT" bolt on top of the pump. From Hagar's page #3:

    "If the IP flow is less than about 25 litres per hour at idle ---you will never get to really great Smileage. "

An hour seems like a long test so values for shorter times will be listed when I (or someone else) find them and can post them here.
On page 4 Hagar notes:

    .SAGA : ---- somehow a TYPO sneaked in here somewhere ---so here are the numbers for you ALL one more time.
    Numbers are from BOSCH and given for the 107 A pumps.

    PUMP RPM first. 500 RPM 3 bar 750 RPM 4.1 bar 1000 RPM 5.2 bar.

    so we can plot a line to 2000 RPM say 10.4 bar --EH ? ---ergo at 4000 RPM ENGINE ---about 150 PSIG

Last edited by Fatmobile on Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
81 Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)               86 Gofl 1.6D                          1985 300TD