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#30
by
theman53
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:03
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So it would be 3.14x 11mm vs 3.14x 9mm
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#31
by
8v-of-fury
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:05
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Correct on the second measurement, but I do not have the information for the cam lift of the Rovers cam plate.. so I cannot say for sure.
Yes physically the plunger will move more fuel.. but as you know the fueling can be de tuned by turning the max fuel screw down. This decreases the amount of throw the internal throttle has on the control collar, opening up the spill ports at a sooner time and thus injecting less fuel per stroke. The plunger moves the same stroke for idle or WOT, but the position of the control collar is what meters fuel injected.
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#32
by
theman53
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:08
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so does the arm on the splines. I don't see it as a good comparision unless both pumps were the same. Put your rover on the aaz and report back.
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#33
by
8v-of-fury
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:12
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So does the arm on the splines.
No sir, that only compresses the governor springs which in turn pulls on the internal throttle and moves the control collar up the plunger to allow more fuel to be injected.
It is not a perfect comparison, but it is good enough. I ran my TDI on a fully turned up 9mm 1.6TD pump to begin with post swap and it still had more torque than the AAZ or 1.6TD. Ran out of top end fueling though.
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#34
by
theman53
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:22
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That is kinda what I was going for on the spline comment
Slap the landy pump on the aaz and do a run. I say that as not only will the fueling be different but I am sure the advance curve is as well. It will be night and day I bet.
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#35
by
8v-of-fury
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:23
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No can do, its got the big snout. Will not fit the pump bracket.
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#36
by
8v-of-fury
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:29
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That is kinda what I was going for on the spline comment
Aye' but it still does not move the control lever any further in relation to the plunger or as far as a DI pump does. The IDI pumps under-fueled my DI engine big time in stock form. And even then again as a 10mm DI hybrid with modified long throw internal lever.
That is why I said in stock form, they are similar in displacement, turbo and fueling. 9mm and big injectors vs 10mm and small injectors.
With the same fueling the DI will always be more powerful, its in the engine design.
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#37
by
theman53
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:49
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Aye' but it still does not move the control lever any further in relation to the plunger or as far as a DI pump does. The IDI pumps under-fueled my DI engine big time in stock form. And even then again as a 10mm DI hybrid with modified long throw internal lever.
EXACTLY my point dear Watson. The TDI is getting more fuel no matter how you want to cut the pie, it is getting a bigger piece. At least that is the way I percieve it.
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#38
by
libbydiesel
on 20 Mar, 2013 23:58
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So it would be 3.14x 11mm vs 3.14x 9mm
Actually, you want to take the radius^2 x pi x camplate lift. 95.0mm^3 vs. 63.6mm^3.
Maxed out, tho, the IDI can't burn as much fuel per rev and what it does burn, it burns less efficiently. At the same EGTs and same RPMs, the TDI wins. The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power. IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
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#39
by
theman53
on 21 Mar, 2013 00:04
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I liked your comment Libby in my imaginary facebook world.
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#40
by
8v-of-fury
on 21 Mar, 2013 00:07
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back
haha.
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#41
by
dieseljunkie69
on 21 Mar, 2013 01:31
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Mtdi all the way
YEAH BABY! TDI was the successor for a reason!
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#42
by
libbydiesel
on 21 Mar, 2013 09:12
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
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#43
by
RabbitJockey
on 21 Mar, 2013 13:18
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The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.
Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?
IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...
This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back haha.
Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy. That is WHY IDI engines were produced. When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use. Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.
The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.
diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm. i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure. a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.
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#44
by
carrizog60
on 21 Mar, 2013 18:16
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had a friend with a 1.9td,with a maxxed out 9mm pump.
he changed to a 10mm(not a 11mm!) and he needed to make the fuel screw almost stick out to match the same power levels...
also,at high rpm a bigger plunger will benefit in eficiency in burn as it will inject more fuel in the same time.
a 9mm could inject the same fuel but most times out of time resulting in smoke but no power.
on a modded engine tdi will win in reliability,but on my head its just because IDI´s investigation stoped many years ago.
~with the right materials and developement i think those problems would be over.
but i think its like 2 stroke engines...
they are smokey,noisier and eat more fuel but damn!they are fun lol
some factors make 2 stroke engines research stop in favor of 4 stroke and i guess its very hard to invert that tendency,just like IDI engines...