AAZ Injection pump timing issue

[vwzzuk]

I just built a 1.6TD engine and have it running. It is a hybrid motor. I'm using a redone 1.9AAZ TD head, 1.9 injectors and a brand new AAZ (ecco version) injection pump. The AAZ injection pump was purchased about a year ago (Europe version new pump made by Bosch) from Prothe. Now before everyone flames me for this, the injection pump is not a standard pump from Prothe. It is a brand new Bosch brand IP that came from Europe. He bought a batch of them. I don't know what the application was but it was sold to me as an AAZ ecco pump and I understand untouched.

Here's my problem: The injection pump has to be severely advanced (toward the head) in order for the engine to run OK. It has very hard starting if timed with the IP positioned near the center of its travel like any other normal IP. Engine doesn't want to start and run like all the other pumps in the standard timing position. It runs advanced OK but loud as marbles. Runs better & quieter yet when warmed up at engine operating temps. The pump has a total maximum travel distance of approximately 2.0 mm. It will turn 1.0mm each direction from center. When I pull out the cold start, its louder, when I push it in, its quieter.

I'm using an older IP pulley with two lock pin holes. Currently, the woodruff key is at 3:00 position and the timing mark on the IP pulley is up where it should be. However, when you look at the pump center line on the nose, it is way advanced past the mark on the IP bracket.

Question: Could it be that the IP is internally 180 degrees out and has to be extremely advanced to run?

Notice on the pics: how close the injector is to the IP body; How advanced it is when you compare the notch on the nose and the mark on the IP bracket. They are about 1/4" apart in advanced position. Most of the ones I've seen have been about 1/8th" maximum.

[8v-of-fury]

Now before everyone flames me for this, the injection pump is not a standard pump from Prothe. It is a brand new Bosch brand IP that came from Europe. He bought a batch of them. I understand untouched.

And you believed him? Another sucker.

I have seen my own pump with extremely worn tolerances on the high pressure side not be able to make the necessary pressures to pop the injector properly. Meaning you need extreme advance in order to get it to pop and run correctly.

It is VERY possible the internals are 180* out, I read it is a common mistake for him. He does business at volume.. so you know it is not him personally putting each together.

You say the keyway is at 3 o'clock.. do you mean the pumps shaft keyway while at TDC?

[vwzzuk]

Yes, the woodruff key on the shaft is 3:00 at TDC.

[8v-of-fury]

That is incorrect. It should be over near 11 o'clock looking the pumps snout dead-on.

Unless you have some bastard AAZ pump, which I have not come across yet . All 1.5, 1.6 N/A, 1.6 TD, 1.9 AAZ, 1.9 TDI, 2.5 Peugeot, and 2.5 Land Rover I have seen and had apart have had the pumps #1 TDC with the key way in the vicinity of 11 o'clock.

Looks like your issue is that you are not firing the right cylinder at the right time!! Crazy how they will run eh?

[vwzzuk]

I'm going to double check the keyway, rotate the pulley 180 degrees and retime it with my dial indicator and see if it makes any difference.

[8v-of-fury]

I think going 180 will be too far in the other direction. You want the pumps key way under the pulleys hub to be around the 11 o'clock mark.

Put the key way so it is pointing straight up, and then rotate it CCW to that next tough spot. That is the correct TDC mark.

[vwzzuk]

You were correct, the woodruf key was at 11:00.

My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.

[vwzzuk]

Update:

1) finishing up the AAZ pump, I timed the IP purposely at 180 degrees out and it would not run at all.
2) I put another rebuilt 1.6 injection pump on the engine today and switched out my injectors with a second set of 1.6 rebuilt ones.

I'm getting the exact same results: won't start unless the IP is in its fully most advanced position on its mounts. So, its not the previous IP.

Why would both my IP's need to be fully advanced, toward the head, to get this engine running? Mechanical timing is correct.
Faulty injection pump bracket?   or   IP bracket locates the pump on the engine block incorrectly?   or  ?

I'm stumped.

[TylerDurden]

All else being equal*, I'd just slip the IP pulley & belt a tooth and get some room to move the IP both ways.

I can't say why it isn't lined-up, but if the remedy works, I'd roll with it.


*(If the cam and crank are properly aligned with absolute certainty.)

[wolf_walker]

The head is the largest variable.  I don't know anything about an AAZ head on 1.6 block.  The height diff is in the block.  
Compression?  Cam?  Cam/crank/pump gears?  Are the brackets and all 1.6?  I've seen them tweaked but not that bad.  Are you positive
TDC is really TDC?  I'd back up and double check everything at this point myself.

edit, this might be a little beneath you, but is it ungodly cold and do your glowplugs work?  Figured it was worth asking..

[vwzzuk]

Block and head are in time. Triple checked it. Flywheel TDC marking is dead on.
Compression is very good, but needs to be fully broken-in properly on the street.
Cam is identical to the 1.6 cam I have that I can see regarding lob positions.
Stock 1.6 crank gear, cam gear, injection pump gear.
Brand new glow plugs working.

Still thinking about possible variables. Hummmmmm.

[8v-of-fury]

Pump must be farked three ways to Sunday then. haha You've exhausted all other things to do with running properly..

[wolf_walker]

But two bad pumps? Stranger things have happened but damn.

[8v-of-fury]

Alright, so you've tried two sets of injectors.. and two separate pumps..

I have not seen a faulty IP bracket, or even how one would exist..

To be clear here;

My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.

You are not using the locking hole in the pulley?? If it is a 1.9 pulley and 1.9 pump why would the 1.9 pulley not line up for the pumps TDC?

Are you absolutely 100% the mark you have as TDC is actually TDC?? This is a fresh built motor, did you use a Gasser flywheel? Are you by chance using the 6* mark for the gassers? Just throwing it out there.. a picture of your flywheel through the inspection hole will clear this up. Please and thanks!

[wolf_walker]

Alright, so you've tried two sets of injectors.. and two separate pumps..

I have not seen a faulty IP bracket, or even how one would exist..

To be clear here;

My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.

You are not using the locking hole in the pulley?? If it is a 1.9 pulley and 1.9 pump why would the 1.9 pulley not line up for the pumps TDC?

Are you absolutely 100% the mark you have as TDC is actually TDC?? This is a fresh built motor, did you use a Gasser flywheel? Are you by chance using the 6* mark for the gassers? Just throwing it out there.. a picture of your flywheel through the inspection hole will clear this up. Please and thanks!

What he said, I verify ALL my flywheels manually as having a correct TDC on new-to-me motors.  I usually paint a mark or such.  I envy the locking tools the TDI's have for that.