1.6 TD is starting to get a bit smokey/bad starting...

[Bugsy_malone 666]

ok I got the injectors out again today and also got a wobble drive extension to get injector 2 out, its so much easier with one of those.

However found something of slight concern, so heres some pictures:

Spot the problem:


injector hole one:


injector hole two:


injector hole 3:





injector hole 4:


now the oil on that injector 3 is fairly thick, not like its leaking from anywhere like it being diesel mixed with oil on the engine, but maybe maybe from inside the cylinder/head, it is mechanically noisy as mentioned on the video posting, so I am wondering whats up or if it might be a ring gone?

Ideas on a postcard!

Ideally I dont want to have to take the engine out and strip it down as realistically it means putting the petrol engine back into the van so I can at least use the van again.

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Update 497. Right I got fed up cleaned everything the best I could and installed the injectors with new washers, started it up and it ran like a heap of crap.

It wasnt hunting as much as previously, but still smokey. Spoke to my dad and he said well it is probably most likely timing, so I thought bugger it I'll go an alter the timing a little more and see if that makes any difference. Marked it and then twisted it towards the engine by about 2mm (the distance between my marks) and it showed an improvement.

It was still smoking and not great on idle, but pulling the CS out this time resulted in it running far better, and at higher revs it was running cleanish too, which it hadnt been before.

So anyway I checked what I could, rev'd it up lots and generally polluted the air with a blueish smoke. So my dad then finally appears to have a look/listen and couldnt really fault it as such as generally it wasnt missing etc, but at higher RPMs the engine was becoming mechanically noisy.

After mucking about with it for so long it had actually warmed the engine up a fair amount, to the point where it was actually starting to run ok, idle was a little lumpy but no worse than that the day it was put in the van and generally through the rev range it was fine, even on veg oil!

But still at high RPM it was mechnically noisy like it was the tappets making noise.

So generally we came to the conclusion the next step is to get one of those oil additives for hydraulic tappets and see if it improves and possibly adjust the timing some more!

The engine still doesnt have a whole lot of diesel knock/clatter on idle though and I have only heard about 1 diesel vw van that had real diesel clatter.

Essentially the thing is kind of running again! But still unsolved as to the problem, I suspect it will be like a bag of bolts again when cold.

[TylerDurden]

So generally we came to the conclusion the next step is to get one of those oil additives for hydraulic tappets and see if it improves and possibly adjust the timing some more!

Sounds like a good plan.

[damac]

if you are running waste oil, who knows whats going on inside your pump.

i have seen the inside of 2 pumps i ran with wvo and an atf soak wasn't enough to get rid of the  buildup inside.  which i don't even think you want passing through your injection system.

i have seen old injectors not play nice with a pump as far as smoke patterns/noise and timing by ear.

if it were me i would make sure my injectors are rebuilt to spec, and i break down my pump completely to reseal and clean and then start off with clear lines from pump going into a jug of diesel.


my first bad experience with a wvo mix/batch was when i quit using the stuff.  thought all was well for a while until one day i could not start either my vw or truck.  pumps got so caked, and im lucky parts didn't break in the pumps when trying to get them started.  i caught it quick and was able to change filters and soak a couple days in atf to get started again, but i broke the pumps down later.

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Well I used the van for 500 miles on WVO which I filtered myself, no water or anything and pretty good stuff as where it comes from at where I work it doesnt get hammered like real restaurants. I equally dont run a single tank, I run 2 tanks, one with diesel one with WVO once the engine is up to temperature, the WVO has twin filters with water trap.

I get the impression that if you run WVO for 10k miles you might start having problems but for a week of use I dont expect to be having the issues of what I am.

Basically the bad starting actually began before even using the veg oil, it just seems it has gotten a bit worse and I have been using it.

I run fuel additives in the veg oil and diesel for injection system cleaning and also I run a small amount of 2 stroke oil to aid lubrication, which I have been doing after a fair amount of research.

I need to do the oil treatment to see if the tappets quieten down, because what I am finding is once the engine is warmed up it runs perfect and almost cleaner than it ever has! its just poor starting/crap running when its cold. Also it has mechanically gotten noisier the engine itself.

But the strange part is that there is not alot of diesel clatter which makes me think a little more timing adjustment maybe required.

Still I will carry on trouble shooting.

[8v-of-fury]

  a little more timing adjustment maybe required.

Still I will carry on trouble shooting.

I told you so. If the CS smooths the idle then ot needs probably just as much bump again as you have done already. Also this should bring the diesel clatter up .

[wolf_walker]

Agree on the timing.

Those hyd tappets crap out pretty regular, it isn't just a VW thing.  I always replace them if the cam is coming out
and I don't know they have under 50K.  They are cheap.  I've also never been able to hear a bad one on a VW-D, but I came to the
conclusion years ago when looking for missing power/mpg and testing them on the bench.  Experience with gassers
using very similar designs reinforced the lesson.  But they aren't a dramatic problem unless one is totally stuck closed...

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Do you know if petrol/diesel hydraulic tappets are the same?

I know I have a spare petrol head if I can work out which tappets have gone noisy (am thinking on cylinder 3 as that was the oily one) and thought I could swap some over for the time being. Although as you say, if the cams out its probably easier to replace the whole lot while your there.

First up though I have some wynnes hydraulic valve lifter treatment to add to the oil. I have used this on my mk3 petrol golf before which had a rattly tappet from cold thats now quiet!

Compared to keep twisting the pump more and more, how much difference does 1 tooth on the cambelt make? I am thinking that although the pump has some adjustment it could end up 4-5degrees by the time I have finished adjusting it, which may fall in line with the idea that its a tooth out? maybe.

[8v-of-fury]

Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.

There is very tight clearances, the piston literally chases the valve back up in to the head each stroke.

Just out of curiosity, what oil and filter are you using??? I have a 90 gas engine that I run on 15w40 diesel oil because 5w or 10w will make the valves extremely noisy until warmup..

[TylerDurden]

Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.

OP is wondering if the IP pulley is off a tooth.

One tooth off = 16 degrees crank, (.6mm plunger stroke).

[8v-of-fury]

whoops, read cambelt as camshaft.. My apologies.

[wolf_walker]

gas/diesel lifter same for hyd, and $7 a pop new

https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=oftinl3pzun4albzcszdps55&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282823@JETTA%20TDI&year=1986&cid=lifter@lifter&gid=5548@Hydraulic%20Lifter

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.

There is very tight clearances, the piston literally chases the valve back up in to the head each stroke.

Just out of curiosity, what oil and filter are you using??? I have a 90 gas engine that I run on 15w40 diesel oil because 5w or 10w will make the valves extremely noisy until warmup..

A vanagon Diesel one. Its specific to the van I think and bigger than normal Gas engines, but importantly it is designed for a 1.6D/TD although those engines normally have solid lifters. at the same time I think its got some sort of run back valve in side because of the angle at which the engine sits.

Cleary the pump cant be 16 deg out because thats a hell of alot!

I have found a set of lifters on ebay for £31 which doesnt seem too bad, but I am reluctant to go straight for that as I'm going to try the oil stuff first.

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Ok so while it was a whopping 3.5c and snowing I thought well I will give it a go at warming the engine up and putting in my hydraulic tappet additive in to see if it made a difference.

So I ran it for about 5-10 minutes at which point the temperature gauge was warming up and I could feel the heating working, so I added the tappet additive and started this video to show how it runs in the day light. Also you can see the engine setup with black diesel filter, veg oil heater below it, twin veg oil filter, pollak 6 port fuel change over etc. Unfortunately the sound on my samsung galaxy S3 is not that great but hopefully you can hear enough to make your own analysis.

So this is warm(not hot, that would have taken a fair drive on a day like today!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJFeVfpNFTE

So I then ran it for about another 5 mins by which time it was warm and running fine it seems. Still a little bit rattly on higher revs mind, but not sure how long till this hydraulic lifter additive will take effect.

Anyway I left it to cool down again for 3 hours and went back to it and it basically ran the same as the previous video I filmed at night where it was lumpy and rattly.

rubbish!

I am tempted to take it for a bit of a spin up the road tomorrow to see if it runs and has any power and what its like, the worst it can do is blow up really.

[vanbcguy]

Forgive me, I know I've read bits of this thread but I can't recall all the finer details.

What injector-related troubleshooting have you done so far?  The random marbles I hear sound like a bad or leaky injector to me.  That would also cause smoke, rough idle... Basically all the symptoms you have.  Just quickly scanning, I see you have had them out but have they been serviced at all?

I also hear a possible bad bearing on a waterpump/alternator but that's unrelated to the smoke / rougher running.  If I had to pick one I would guess alternator.