1.6 TD is starting to get a bit smokey/bad starting...

[Bugsy_malone 666]

right didnt get chance to muck about with the IP today, but gave it a go at starting. Pulled the CS on turned on the ignition and let the glow plug light go out then it spun over about 6 times before firing and knocking the start out, so turned the ignition and tried again this time with my foot on the throttle a little it started up, bit of smoke initially for about 10 seconds it then cleared and ran about as clean as its likely too.

With the Cold start on I reved it up and left it running a while to warm up, runs perfect doesnt stumble at any rpm or anything. Knocked the CS off and it started to run like a bag of bolts again, smokey running generally rough. Once the engines warmed up its 'ok' but it runs far better with the CS out than in and I dont recall it always being like this and I cant see how anything could have 'moved'

I also dont think its an air leak in any of the lines, otherwise I'd experience rubbish running with the CS on or off.

could there be an issue with the fuel pump?

could it be that the injectors need rebuilding?

Will I do the engine any damage running with the CS on all the time?

The less I need to do the better as it all costs money and its coming up to christmas!

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Ok time to get this thread back up and running now I had a bit of time to work on the van.

So basically the whole thing was running like a heap of crap, I altered the timing a fraction (barely a pencils width) and it was not really any better, pulled the cold start on and it was a bit better but still rubbish.

So I sat down had a think about causes and couldnt really pin it on anything, but thought maybe I could check the injectors as a starter for 10. I have a spare NA which I pulled from my bus years ago when it broke down (we think the cause may have either been the starter motor not spinning fast enough, the filter head with built in primer or power to the fuel cut off solenoid). I had it running from a can of red diesel since and it was fine so I think it may have been something minor. Anyway I pulled the injectors out of it last night, and the NA ones were cleanish, I pulled the ones from the TD, alot more carbon build up, I think the NA ones were recon at some point because they had been put in with copper grease on the threads!

Swapped the injectors over and started it up, I seem to have made the problem worse!

Now the engine is hunting and smoking, wont idle. Mechanically very noisy.

So I came to a few possible conclusions, maybe sticking/siezed hydraulic tappet? I figured if the valves wernt closing/operating properly may cause it to be noisy and crap, it improves at higher RPM but not masses. Fuel pump issues - either a problem with the pump itself or my dad suggested maybe the belt jumped a tooth.

I am wondering how likely is it that it could have jumped a tooth on the cam belt?

[TylerDurden]

A full IP-tooth is quite a bit.  The IP pulley has 44teeth: 360^o/44=8.18^o (cam), which equals 16.36^o crank.

The CS advances the IP 5^o (crank). If it runs smooth with the CS pulled, it is easy enough to advance the IP 5 degrees (+.008" plunger travel) and checking the results.

[vanbcguy]

Just FYI because I don't see it mentioned anywhere here...

Next up I move the fuel pump timing marginally, bit of an arse to do on my van but I managed to twist the pump by a degree maybe (which is what I guess a pencils width to be) It wouldnt really move much anyway because of the injector pipes and stuff, but importantly it was only moved a tiny bit as suggested.

Here's a big fat WARNING!!

I would highly recommend going to your vehicle and loosening all your metal injection lines a bit to relieve any tension that you put on them from adjusting your pump timing, then tightening them back up.  They do NOT survive long if you adjust your timing without taking the tension out of the injector lines.  They are fairly brittle so any twist or other tension put on them plus the harmonics of the engine leads to cracks, in particular on Injector #2.  You just need to undo all 4 at the pump end and then do them up again, though doing both ends isn't a bad idea.  They WILL crack otherwise, ask me how I know...  And they are expensive to replace, plus somewhat hard to find.

[745 turbogreasel]

^ it sucks, but he's right.

Ok time to get this thread back up and running now I had a bit of time to work on the van.

So basically the whole thing was running like a heap of crap,

Can you narrow that down a little?high/low RPM, will/will not rev, misses a cyl sometimes, one cyl allways, half  the cyls most of the time....etc
[/quote]

 I altered the timing a fraction (barely a pencils width) and it was not really any better, pulled the cold start on and it was a bit better but still rubbish.

Unless the advance is failed, CS only affects timing to a little above idle, so if its making a diff at 2000 RPM, you have  a huge clue

So I sat down had a think about causes and couldnt really pin it on anything, but thought maybe I could check the injectors as a starter for 10. I have a spare NA which I pulled from my bus years ago when it broke down (we think the cause may have either been the starter motor not spinning fast enough, the filter head with built in primer or power to the fuel cut off solenoid). I had it running from a can of red diesel since and it was fine so I think it may have been something minor. Anyway I pulled the injectors out of it last night, and the NA ones were cleanish, I pulled the ones from the TD, alot more carbon build up, I think the NA ones were recon at some point because they had been put in with copper grease on the threads!

Were the symptoms the same? 
I may not have read back far enough, but do you have clear fuel lines, and tried running on a separate fuel supply?

I am wondering how likely is it that it could have jumped a tooth on the cam belt?

How loose is the belt?

[8v-of-fury]

The injectors that you installed most recently probably dried up from sitting for so long. I have had luck running the engine on ATf and then letting it sit for a few hours and then switching back to a diesel jug. Has free'd up injectors for me three times in the past.

A pencil width, while it is a lot of actual timing difference, is probably not enough to go from horrible to perfect. I would start by advancing it more until A. it runs the way you want it too or B. It becomes extremely clackity. If B. occurs before A. you have a problem still .

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Ok lets cover some ground here. The injector pipes have been on an off a fair amount so they are not under any undue stress other than they would normally be under.

The cam belt is tight as it kind of describes in the book where you shouldnt be able to quite turn it 90 degrees when you have it between your fingers.

The injectors I put in still had diesel in them and I am not convinced the period of time they have been sat since it was last run about 2 years ago is enough to cause that much a problem. I may be wrong but in my experience of most vehicles.

My dads been looking online a little and thinks it is a fuel related problem and he may be right but its finding the problems cause, his view is possible fuel starvation somewhere. He was the one who also thinks that it may have slipped a tooth on the belt, but he was just hazarding a guess - I fitted the belt 5000 miles ago and its as tight as its ever been so not convinced its that.

I have a few thoughts of potential problems:

hydraulic valve lifters, you dont normally get them on vanagon engines apparently as the turbo engines only came with solid lifters. Now I can see this may be related to the 50degree angle the engine sits at in the vanagon. I did wonder if potentially an engine with 150k+ on it may have slightly worn lifters which dont like being at more of an angle and have seized up or something.

fuel system, I run wvo and diesel, separate tanks and separate filters running through a 6 port pollak valve to do the change over between fuels. I am sure I have read somewhere about pollak valves failing, mines 12 months old but has only seen 500 miles use (5 days!) so I cant see it should have failed that quick. So basically my plan next is to take the supply pipe off the fuel pump, use the hand primer from the tank and make sure diesel flows through easily. I'm also going to plumb the diesel pipe straight into the pump to double make sure I am getting diesel only and eliminate air leaks from the valve.

ok and maybe to help diagnosis, heres a bad video taken at night with my phone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNRjRKFVKSc&feature=youtu.be

now on that video you can hear a tiny bit of belt squeal, its the multigroove alternator belt which needs a little adjustment again (sometimes squeals a little when its cold/bit of surface rust on the water pump pulley)

In that video I dont have the CS pulled out, I am holding it on the throttle to keep it 'idling' but near the end I let off which is where is struggled and eventually stalled.

It sounds more knocky than diesel clatter which worries me.

Some amusing extras here from previous points in time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQaKPUysXNw - during 2010 when I fitted a vw aircooled stinger to the exhaust flange for a giggle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vODN_mFqvL8 - first test drive, not a blistering V8 but picks up pretty well for a small engine in a bay window van!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXS8a7s1Ow - when the engine was first installed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmNcwD0bdU - I think a bit later on same day. - funny the belt still squeaked then!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zHmbXieaqk - This was further back when I had the NA engine in there which is what I used injectors from, you can hear the old vanagon start struggling, it eventually gave up and I adapted a mk3 golf one when I went TD!

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Oh something else, injector seals, can you reuse those funny washer things? I havent taken them out as I didnt realise there were seals in there, I literally swapped injectors.

[8v-of-fury]

Advance it, see what happens. Easiest first. Well even if they had fuel in them, diesel does go bad and gel up.

With these it is always a fuel related problem, so tell the old-man he's right.. but there wasn't much else it could be lol.

You can reuse them if you reform them, but not unless you do that. If you didn't the injectors gotta come back out.

[Bugsy_malone 666]

You can reuse them if you reform them, but not unless you do that. If you didn't the injectors gotta come back out.

I was afraid you were going to say that!

unfortunately due to it being dark, mid week and me not knowing I just popped the other injectors in, number 2 is a right arse to get to, I have an injector socket but not a wobble drive extension.

I'm going to phone vw tomorrow and a motor factors I use to see if anyone has any seals on the shelf.

Then theres the joy of fishing them out.

Do you think this may have also related in the way its running/hunting? it wasnt running massively better before I changed the injectors, but at least it would idle with the CS on but I still say what worries me is the amount of mechanical noise.

[TylerDurden]

A retrieval magnet usually pulls the shields out easily. They are easily reformed with a ball bearing, socket and c-clamp (large vice-grips ("mole grips" over there) can conveniently squish the same amount each time.)

[vanbcguy]

If they are stuck for some reason and a magnet won't pull 'em out you can use something that hooks on to them - I often use an old bicycle spoke but a large wood screw will work quite well too.  SOME folks crank the engine over and let air pressure pop 'em out, but you never know where they're going to go if you do that. 

[Bugsy_malone 666]

If they are stuck for some reason and a magnet won't pull 'em out you can use something that hooks on to them - I often use an old bicycle spoke but a large wood screw will work quite well too.  SOME folks crank the engine over and let air pressure pop 'em out, but you never know where they're going to go if you do that. 

Funnily the bicycle spoke idea was on my agenda after I stripped a wheel a while back and still have a load of spokes knocking about

Need to ring round today and try to find out if anyones got any instock, I dont think reforming them will be on my list of options to be honest.

[vanbcguy]

Some of the Mercedes engines use the same part if that helps expand your search.

For example:
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/3419

[Bugsy_malone 666]

Well I just been down vw £17 later I have 4 of the right washers. Seems most motor factors cant get hold of them and I cant find them on ebay either.

VW can easily get them if I need more. for now I'll stick with these 4 and hopefully leave it at that!