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aiming for 180hp+ with AAZ... by Dirtrag2 on 11 Sep, 2012 07:26
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hi all, I still have my 87 Fox Wagon project in the wings and now with a freshly built garage to work in I can actually start working on it!
I will start with the engine and worry about fitting it in the car at a later stage in the build. EVERYTHING needs to be done to the shell so lots of work ahead
here are the engine factoids:
rebuilt 98 stock AAZ, i forget the #'s but compression was within specs after the re-ring
Main bearings replaced, all seals in head replaced.
T3 tubro off a 1.6td with 1.6td exhasut mani ( i don't understand much about mapping I will have to research and learn )
EGT probe at center just before turbo
things to do:
ARP head studs
better flowing intake manifold ( advice? )
full port and polish on head ( including work around valves )
lift pump for extra/consistent fuel delivery
modified fuel pump ( Giles pump most probably )
main bearing cap girdle ( got one
)
water/meth injection
softly lightened Flywheel for better response ( i think i need to use the Fox flywheel )
intercooler ( not sure fm or awic )
oil cooler
3" exhaust from manifold straight to glass pack
I think I should be ok to hit my HP # on stock internals but any advice will be appreciated
also will the AAZ IP be good to flow enough fuel or should i be looking for another solution? I would like this engine to keep pulling up to 5k-5500 rpm
I'll be pulling the head from my " spare " AAZ to practice porting this weekend, gotta start somewhere!
thanks! -
#1 by RabbitJockey on 11 Sep, 2012 08:50
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i think your recipe is good, gasket match/clean up the intake and exhaust manifolds, i think a pd manifold should work fine, and they are fairly priced from what i have seen. the bottom end should be fine, but while it's apart i think arp rod bolts and main studs are very appropriate! that turbo isn't going to get you 180whp, depending on how much you have to spend and how meticulous you are depends on what turbo i'd suggest. to go cheap, you could find a used volvo 760 t3 turbo for cheap, and use the compressor from that mated to the exhaust side of the vw turbo. if you run a larger injection pump plunger and since you are using an aaz, i think you could almost get away with running the straight volvo turbo, but the vw exhaust housing will spool up the turbo faster and should flow the 180hp you want. rebuild kit is 100 and then what ever a volvo turbo would cost you, so that can be done for cheap, the down side is its an older dated turbo and won't be balanced. but if you want it rebuilt right its going to cost u 225+ cost of volvo turbo +shipping, which would stil be cheap i'd bet that could all be done for around 350dollars. or you could get a newer garrett gt series turbo, or one of the newer small sized holsets alcaid has been talking about, they are very good turbos especially for their price.
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#2 by Alleslowbuged on 11 Sep, 2012 11:04
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Hi,
another option would be switzer S100 oder S2a turbos, they spool good enough (specialy the S100) and are captable for 200hp.
Best Regards -
#3 by Dirtrag2 on 12 Sep, 2012 12:34
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or you could get a newer garrett gt series turbo, or one of the newer small sized holsets alcaid has been talking about, they are very good turbos especially for their price.
I spent yesterday afternoon learning the math and how to read compressor maps, useful stuff! the turbo alcaid mentioned seems quite capable, also I came up with the holset hx30 as a possible candidate. I should be able to source the hx30 but I can't find any info on the He211W. what is it off of? and how available is it? -
#4 by Syncroincity on 12 Sep, 2012 17:30
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You won't go wrong with giving your pump to Giles, but expect to spend an extra $250 or so on a turbo-specific top aneroid, the one on the stock AAZ pump does not enrich fueling with boost. Send him your injectors as well, he'll set & match them perfectly. The stock injectors will be all you need, the magic is in the pump.
Is the Fox transverse or longitudinal? Never actually looked at one.
I have a few extra bits, if you're interested... a PD intake manifold (points left looking at the open ports) and a brand-new VNT-15 turbo. Look into the VNT option; it's more work to set up properly, but you see big gains over the entire rpm range.
I went with AWIC, but I'm in a Vanagon, you might find air-air easier/cheaper.
I was doing some reading on Devil's Own website about water injection, I'm looking at this as well, I'm thinking of a very small injector pointing at the turbo impeller, then another larger one in the intake after the I/C. The pre-turbo spray acts to change the map of the turbo with the cooling effect making it perform like a larger turbo, delivering better later in the rpm range while still spooling quickly...
Here's my build thread, if you're interested. http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19739.0
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#5 by TurboJ on 13 Sep, 2012 00:48
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If you put a water nozzle before the turbo on an intercooled car, the water mist will condense into bigger drops inside the intercooler - these won't evaporate again like they should, and you just get random drops flying into the inlet and that can hurt your normal combustion.
I'm not sure how big that problem is, but it has been advised to fit nozzles before the turbo only when there isn't an intercooler present. -
#6 by RabbitJockey on 13 Sep, 2012 08:50
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If you put a water nozzle before the turbo on an intercooled car, the water mist will condense into bigger drops inside the intercooler - these won't evaporate again like they should, and you just get random drops flying into the inlet and that can hurt your normal combustion.
I'm not sure how big that problem is, but it has been advised to fit nozzles before the turbo only when there isn't an intercooler present.
i wish i could remember where, but i have read this is more of a myth than anything and it's actually ok to do both. i will do some searching before i say anything for certain. -
#7 by R.O.R-2.0 on 13 Sep, 2012 12:09
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If you put a water nozzle before the turbo on an intercooled car, the water mist will condense into bigger drops inside the intercooler - these won't evaporate again like they should, and you just get random drops flying into the inlet and that can hurt your normal combustion.
I'm not sure how big that problem is, but it has been advised to fit nozzles before the turbo only when there isn't an intercooler present.
i wish i could remember where, but i have read this is more of a myth than anything and it's actually ok to do both. i will do some searching before i say anything for certain.
ive read the same thing..
the air is going soo fast thru the intercooler that it doesnt get enough time to drop out.. -
#8 by RabbitJockey on 13 Sep, 2012 14:34
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Yes and let's say there was condensation that formed there's no way it's going to make it through the boost piping down the intake mani, split into one of four runners, and past the valve with out being broken up
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#9 by Dirtrag2 on 13 Sep, 2012 16:59
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so there IS precedent to injecting BEFORE turbo and piping it thru... cool!!
Syncro: the Fox is longitude mount , I will need to find donor parts from a Quantum TD ( impossible find in my area ) or fab up a bunch'o stuff. BTW your build thread is very well documented and lots of good info thanks. -
#10 by Syncroincity on 13 Sep, 2012 17:26
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Cool. Check the classifieds on thesamba.com as well, there's always a few Quantums floating around.
You'll have a setup similar to mine w/ the longitud. engine, probably with more room to play with. Sounds like a great project. There was a TDI Fox wagon floating around on the web a few months ago in FL, super clean. I've always liked the small wagon form, reminds me of the old squarebacks.
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#11 by CrazyAndy on 13 Sep, 2012 18:09
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I like this idea of using the Fox, should be a great engine to pair up to a medium size utilitarian wagon.
Basically what Trev0rbr says is right, except I wish I could find the rod bolts he mentioned. I'm building an AAZ for my rabbit myself to about 150 HP, and I'm doing what you'll be doing for the most part except just sticking with the T3 and no water injection, along w/ AAIC.
And speaking of intercooling, I believe your best solution would be to mount an air-to-air. Since the Fox mounts it's radiator in one corner of the engine bay like the Audis it was based off of, you could really go crazy with throwing a wide or deep intercooler either in front of the radiator or in the part of the grill where the rad draws no air from. Further more you could minimize on piping by making the IC inlet and oulets on the same side, keeping the bay cleaner. Would match up great w/ a PD150 intake!
On the turbo, I'd do what Trev says and get a Volvo cold side to run on your T3. He and I have talked about my turbo options in detail and he's told me such a hybrit can make 30 PSI very attainable out of that unit with the appropriate intercooling support to keep EGTs manageable.
Could you throw up a pic of your girdle setup? Not running one myself but I like to see what folks have done to strengthen their bottom end further. If I ever went TDI I'd get one on principle.
Synchronicity makes a good point as well on letting Giles work his magic on the AAZ pump. Many AAZ pumps are just glorified Eco pumps with little aneroid input, and addition of a proper one would make the engine have MUCH more power potential under boost. Just watch that EGT gauge!
Please keep posting as your build begins to pick up steam. I have not seen a Fox TD build yet, and am very interested in how you integrate your go-fast goodies into the longitudinal layout. I just wish I had some recommendations I could make about engine mounts other than make friends with someone with a welder. Not that that's a bad option at all. -
#12 by Dirtrag2 on 13 Sep, 2012 18:24
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I like this idea of using the Fox, should be a great engine to pair up to a medium size utilitarian wagon.
Thanks, it will be funQuoteOn the turbo, I'd do what Trev says and get a Volvo cold side to run on your T3. He and I have talked about my turbo options in detail and he's told me such a hybrit can make 30 PSI very attainable out of that unit with the appropriate intercooling support to keep EGTs manageable.
has anyone ever mapped this hybrid? or tried it on an application like mine? I like the simplicity of it...QuoteCould you throw up a pic of your girdle setup? Not running one myself but I like to see what folks have done to strengthen their bottom end further. If I ever went TDI I'd get one on principle.
got it here a couple years ago
I can't be the only one who hasn't used it yet!
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18083.0;topicseen
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#13 by RabbitJockey on 13 Sep, 2012 18:38
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The map of the 50 trim t3 is pretty good for our engines there are better turbos, but for the price and the fact that the turbo will be almost exactly the same on the outside appearance as the stock unit. Theman53 will have a similar turbo on his engine soon, and there is someone on this forum with an aaz he put the same turbo as theman53 has on. I wish I could remember his username.
Andy! Arp rod bolts they are the same as 8v stuff mine were actually for a g60 they're cheaper than own boots too. I had the machine shop install them and also install new bushings, resize the big ends, polish and balance them, pricing was decent I forget what it actually cost, but hey while you're in there why not? There are some things it is easier to just let the pros do it -
#14 by Syncroincity on 13 Sep, 2012 18:55
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Find a Quantum Syncro while you're at it, make it AWD.
There's a breeding pair for sale in Mass. right now. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1334449
I wonder how far apart the dimensions are for the Fox & Quantum, might just need a little trimming of driveshaft lengths...