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Is it possible to time the injection pump without a dial indicator??
by
mtnbob
on 02 Aug, 2012 21:34
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I'm very busy reading Vince's awesome tutorial on setting the timing and realized that I do not have a dial gauge and a probe to set the timing. Is there another way?? I'm hoping I don't have to order something else I can't afford, but if I do, then I will.
Thanks,
Robert
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#1
by
ORCoaster
on 02 Aug, 2012 23:18
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Not if you really want it to be done correctly. The whole idea of a dial gauge is to be able to measure the distance the cam plate moves the plunger from a zero setting to what ever you set it at when the engine comes up to TDC. All the other methods I have tried give an approximation and that is just not good enough for the IP setting. You can get it close but you can't really be sure what the setting is without the dial gauge.
It is one of those proper tools for the proper job sort of thing. You don't cut diamonds with a cold chisel and you shouldn't expect to properly time you IP with a stick or a bolt or anything other than a dial gauge inserted into that hole in the back of the pump.
Believe me I have tried and was off considerably even when I was pretty confident I was correctly measuring it.
We are talking millimeters here not inches. And a few one way or the other seems to make a difference in good, better, best performance.
Just my tow pennies. DAS
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#2
by
8v-of-fury
on 02 Aug, 2012 23:35
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OR(oller)Coaster,
I disagree with most of what you said, not that you are not right, just that it is not necessary procedure for such circumstances as we all have. Being that all of our pumps and injectors likely have 200k or more kms on them. The dial indicator at this point is then useless to us. It will tell us the injection timing yes, but that number is entirely useless unless the pumps are within book spec a.k.a brand spankin'. Being that no two pumps have worn the same, been driven the same, been cared for the same or even run on the same fuel is proof the actual timing number is unusable information.
Timing by ear and butt is a much better way of doing the pump timing. You are not going to hurt anything by being too Retarded or Advanced with your injection timing, other than your performance and economy. If your pump runs best at 0.84mm then run it, if your pumps runs best at 1.05mm then run it. It is trial and error, much like using the gauge would be anyway. Move the pump towards the engine (advance the timing) until you start to hear an audible clack-clack (like someone had poured marbles in your intake) and then back off a bit. You are now right within your personal setups sweet spot, the spot right before too much advance. It will yield best performance, cold starts and economy almost every time.
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#3
by
fatmobile
on 02 Aug, 2012 23:36
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Yeah, you can tune it according to how it runs,
instead of adjusting it to an acceptable number.
Line the marks up: pump/bracket and sprocket it should start.
Turn it while running and you will get a good feel for where it likes to run,.. that'll get you in the general area.
But since a turn of even 1/32nd inch can change how it runs you'll need to paint-up an area where the pump meets the bracket then scribe a mark.
Turn it the width of a pencil line and test drive it again.
Using a dial gauge won't give you a better feel for where your engine likes to ride,.. it takes a little extra work and time to find the sweet spot,
For that a scribe on the bracket/pump will work
It might make you feel more comfortable to be within a certain range (most TD folks find it runs better slightly above the range anyway).
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#4
by
bbob203
on 03 Aug, 2012 06:13
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if you don't have a dial guage don't waste your money a little bit of time you can getvitvset correctly by sound. because even if you set it per the bentley you will have to adjust it again most likely.
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#5
by
theman53
on 03 Aug, 2012 09:58
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I disagree with you 8v. Not that it cannot be done, but if you are wicked retarded you will have super high EGT. If you are too advanced you will increase cylinder pressure and too much could actually bend a rod, with a ton of fuel. Also, even if these pumps have 200,000 miles on them they are usually ok enough as when they start running poorly they will end up at a bosch rebuild center. I would think that there are pumps that are x spec from the factory and some that are x-.002 spec from the factory as there is a range of what is good. Without tracking the pump from new there is really no way to tell. Obviously if you have a pump with little to no internal pressure then it wasn't that way from the factory and is one you could time as needed to get it to run. I think Libby has the best method of the timing light. But I think some sort of deal with a number to set a base on is needed, therefore the tools are one of them I call a must have.
If you want to mark a line or something the way I would do it is mark a line at .080 and one at 1.20. Then you could be in between that and OK for the most part. But hillbillying it up and just cranking away with a mark that seems ok because it ran good I personally cannot endorse. You could end up with timing in the 2.05 range < poke at 8v LOL
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#6
by
mtnbob
on 03 Aug, 2012 10:45
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Just so everybody knows, as soon as I am able to get this thing running again, I will be driving it to my 73 yr old mechanics house on the other side of town to get the car checked out and adjusted as needed. I'm really just trying to get it running and keep it from doing anything that would ruin all this money and time that I have sunk into it.
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#7
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 03 Aug, 2012 13:21
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I disagree with you 8v. Not that it cannot be done, but if you are wicked retarded you will have super high EGT. If you are too advanced you will increase cylinder pressure and too much could actually bend a rod, with a ton of fuel. Also, even if these pumps have 200,000 miles on them they are usually ok enough as when they start running poorly they will end up at a bosch rebuild center. I would think that there are pumps that are x spec from the factory and some that are x-.002 spec from the factory as there is a range of what is good. Without tracking the pump from new there is really no way to tell. Obviously if you have a pump with little to no internal pressure then it wasn't that way from the factory and is one you could time as needed to get it to run. I think Libby has the best method of the timing light. But I think some sort of deal with a number to set a base on is needed, therefore the tools are one of them I call a must have.
If you want to mark a line or something the way I would do it is mark a line at .080 and one at 1.20. Then you could be in between that and OK for the most part. But hillbillying it up and just cranking away with a mark that seems ok because it ran good I personally cannot endorse. You could end up with timing in the 2.05 range < poke at 8v LOL
oh no, you wont blow a head gasket.. your engine will just be REALLY SLOW..
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#8
by
8v-of-fury
on 03 Aug, 2012 13:47
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MTNBOB, Time it somewhere by ear between clack (too advanced) and smoking at idle (too retarded) and it will get you across town just fine.
But hillbillying it up and just cranking away with a mark that seems ok because it ran good I personally cannot endorse. You could end up with timing in the 2.05 range < poke at 8v LOL
LOL Shatttuppp. I am running a mechanical TDI pump I built myself though, there is no set timing number for these beasts.. Furthermore, it ran great at 2.10mm with tons of power. I found out yesterday after making a internal pressure gauge, that I have pretty much no internal pressure. Something like 18psi at idle when I need up near 45psi.
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#9
by
ORCoaster
on 03 Aug, 2012 13:48
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Just so everybody knows, as soon as I am able to get this thing running again, I will be driving it to my 73 yr old mechanics house on the other side of town to get the car checked out and adjusted as needed. I'm really just trying to get it running and keep it from doing anything that would ruin all this money and time that I have sunk into it.
If this is the case then I will take back all that I said and defer to the advance towards the block till it rattles and bring the pump to the front. Mark that spot and compare it to the dial gauge the mechanic has. I like the .8 & 1.2 marks on the bracket. Just have to have the dial to get them there in the first place. Oh, and if you remove the timing belt these may move as tensioning the belt may be different the next time.
I have hillbilly tuned my car for about a year and was satisfied with the mileage and the performance but now that I own a gauge it is even better. Save your pennies you will want one sooner than later. Or become really good friends with the old mechanic.
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#10
by
ORCoaster
on 03 Aug, 2012 13:50
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LOL Shatttuppp. I am running a mechanical TDI pump I built myself though, there is no set timing number for these beasts.. Furthermore, it ran great at 2.10mm with tons of power. I found out yesterday after making a internal pressure gauge, that I have pretty much no internal pressure. Something like 18psi at idle when I need up near 45psi.
18 psi? herein lies your success for the large advance. You can't get it with the dynamic advance so you make it up with the static one.
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#11
by
8v-of-fury
on 03 Aug, 2012 13:52
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I have hillbilly tuned my car for about a year and was satisfied with the mileage and the performance but now that I own a gauge it is even better. Save your pennies you will want one sooner than later. Or become really good friends with the old mechanic.
Now this I agree with
. Yes it is a good tool to have, in case you want to mark down your own personal setting for installation after some pump, timing belt or whichever work that will require removing the pump and thus losing your setting.
I would advise getting Prothes kit. I have one personally, and have used it more than 100 times it is still just as good as any "quality" gauge.
If I can't make the pump pressure have the injection happen at the right time I'll make it happen
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#12
by
libbydiesel
on 03 Aug, 2012 14:01
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I use a diesel pulse adapter instead of dial gauge and it is the best of all worlds. Because I am adjusting the timing based on the actual start of injection, the amount of clack (at least until the dynamic advance kicks in) is the same from one pump to the next regardless of injector or pump wear. Very fast and convenient and spot on every time. I think timing by ear can do similarly, but there is still something very nice about an objective measurement.
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#13
by
ORCoaster
on 03 Aug, 2012 23:11
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I think we should all drive to Libby's place and have him set us up correctly. I would love to have that kind of ability.
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#14
by
mtnbob
on 03 Aug, 2012 23:34
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