using vw injectors for a detroit diesel

[NintendoKD]

I am helping a friend rebuild a 6.2 detroit from an M1009.  This is an N/A motor, will be running 5 psi from a 6.5 turbo setup.  I was curious about injector selection and wanted to do some research on dual spring/rate injectors, egts are driven down, as well as improving performance and economy, and emissions "although not an issue"  this also reduces piston rattle.  now take a 1.9 aaz that is ~ .475l per cyl. where the 6.2 has ~.775l per cyl.  I wonder if this will be a problem.  I am curious about spray patterns between the two, and injection pressures as well, what breaking pressures are they rated for?  can I adjust to make the AAZ injectors work? "question directed toward Jedi Master Giles"  are there other IDI injectors that will work?  There really isn't a performance community for IDI's out here at all.  Someone told me that you can't make good power on the IDI engines with forced induction because of the way that they work, why is that, or are they waaay off?  I was privy to quite the contrary.

thanks,

Kevin

[745 turbogreasel]

Use NA precups, and Banks manifolds.
you are barking up the wrong tree with VW injectors.  Marine injectors maybe
Dont cheap out on Glow plugs, they are terrible to change behind the turbo.
HMMV cooling mod and 6.5 serpentine setup.

You can't make good power from a GM 6.2/6.5 because it will blow apart, but they do OK at 'doesn't suck' power.

[R.O.R-2.0]

that is NOT a detroit diesel..

its a GM diesel that detroit re-designed..

a REAL detroit is a 2 stroke, and supercharged.. aka "screamin jimmy"

and i dont think you can use a complete VW injector in a 6.2.. i think you use JUST THE NOZZLES. but i would still use the MARINE 6.2/6.5 nozzles.

300hp is the absolute top end of the power spectrum for the GM idi..

scheid has a 6.5TTD (twin turbo, lots of flow) thats still not breaking 350hp, because it blows up every time they push it past that..

[NintendoKD]

thanks for the info guys, what is the failure point of the engine just for curiosities sake?  This has been extremely helpful.

[745 turbogreasel]

Depends which one you have, but mostly the relating to the crank, heads, or #7 cyl.

[8v-of-fury]

but mostly the relating to the crank, heads,

Basically the entire engine.. lol. Worst thing ever designed.

[NintendoKD]

not true, they run damn near forever if you maintain them, just don't like more power than stock, so crank is weak sauce, webbing in the mains is weak sauce, cooling system sucks, could use oil squirters "like a vw" valvetrain is weaksauce "pushrod motor" what else is new? what else are the weak points?  If the flattie v-8 was dropped "and it had very similar issues" for these then it wouldn't be the engine that it is today, It really surprises me that no one does anything more with this thing.  I am looking at a stronger forged crank, flat plane, because it can rev no prob, roller cam and roller rockers  "not weak aluminum ones" better pushrods, no overlap cam with a different profile to take advantage of forced induction, arp built bottom end with mains girdle and re-enforced webbing.  these are rather liberal mods that can make a big difference in both performance and longevity, not cheap because of the availability of parts, but the block is similar in design to others so I should be able top cross reference something right?  There has to be a community out there that caters to these.  I just have the extreme pleasure of finding them, well......... Challenge Accepted!

[745 turbogreasel]

There is a community, try 'chevy cummins' or www.duramaxforum.com
It already has roller cam, non aluminum shaft rockers, non overlap cam.
Mine also has expensive studs, and benefits plenty form forced induction.   At 150K, its on head gaskets #3+, and block #2+.  It runs as good as a 6.5T, and gets slightly better Mileage.
Fundamentally, weak top end + weak bottom end leaves what? fuel system plagued by inadequate filtration? = weak motor.
You still haven't addressed #7 burning up,  chronic HG failure, or the harmonic balancer fragging.

[NintendoKD]

look here, there are no bad engines, just bad engineers
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx
good info

[bajacalal]

I don't think these are necessarily bad engines, for a light-duty diesel.

But putting them in the HMMVW was a bad idea.

[745 turbogreasel]

look here, there are no bad engines, just bad engineers
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx
good info

The Optimizer 6500 diesel engine now produces 205 hp and 440 ft.lbs. of torque....Sorry, the bad news is that you cannot buy a new block from GEP.

So, even after you replace all of the engine with expensive aftermarket stuff that isn't for sale, you come out with 1/3 less power than a lightly modded  12V Cummins, and  there is no mention of average time between rebuilds.  Even an IDI 7.3 makes better power than that with a $700 used turbo kit.

[R.O.R-2.0]

you can still buy AM general 6500s

they are the GOOD 6.5TD.. upgraded blocks, heads, everything..

thats what they use in the HMMV, not a regular old 6.2/6.5

the AM general engines are good. weve used them in a couple different boats without issues..

if they last in a boat, they will last in anything..

[NintendoKD]

I don't think these are necessarily bad engines, for a light-duty diesel.

But putting them in the HMMVW was a bad idea.

ladies and gentleman, we have a winner, waaaaay too much driveline drag, and got even worse with UP armor, the weight was just too much for it.  I therefore second that motion

[745 turbogreasel]

What are you talking about? DL drag is the same as any other GM 4x4 truck, and an M1152 weighs #6200, slightly less than my Suburban.
The armored TOW launcher model weighs the same as me with the popup  trailer kitted for camping, and it gets worse advertised MPG's than I ever have, despite having one more gear.
*specs from the AM general site.

[R.O.R-2.0]

the GM PRODUCED IDI diesels were ALL JUNK..

the AM GENERAL "OPTIMIZER 6500" is not a GM 6.5TD.. it bolts in the same spot, but they are much tougher..

thats what the HMMV got.. the 6500 optimizer is different. way better..

"Today, AM General continues to build the latest developed rendition of the 6.5L for many military application vehicles, the most popular of which is the High Mobility Multi-Purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV, better known as the HUMVEE). The Optimizer 6500 diesel engine now produces 205 hp and 440 ft.lbs. of torque and there have been numerous improvements made to ensure its long term reliability. It’s definitely NOT the same old GM 6.5L."

that quote was stolen off this web page..

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Item/1458/the_optimizer_6500.aspx