Author Topic: Is it possible for the pump to be timed 180* out? Internally as well?  (Read 16244 times)

March 18, 2012, 09:32:38 am

srgtlord

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New timing belt, I swapped injection pumps, set timing to .90mm  now its reallly difficult to start the stupid thing  and it smokes bluish greyish smoke  ??? My car did not have this issue before the pump swap, but granted its been sitting for almost 1 month. Whats going on here? Is the timing advanced too far?  The engine does idle on the lower side. Whats going on here?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 10:30:59 pm by 8v-of-fury »



Reply #1March 18, 2012, 09:50:46 am

Alleslowbuged

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2012, 09:50:46 am »
If it realy realy runs like a bag of nuts, pherhaps the pump is 180 wrong.

Best Regards
VW Golf Mk1 (Typ 17) 1981 with 1.6 TD
BMW E28 524 TD

Reply #2March 18, 2012, 10:16:30 am

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2012, 10:16:30 am »
The pump timing is where its supposed to be. The 90's injection pump cogs only had 1 lock pin hole. Maybe I advanced the timing too far? Ill try retarding the timing and go from there.

Reply #3March 18, 2012, 10:30:36 am

Alleslowbuged

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2012, 10:30:36 am »
Hi,

if the pump was opened before you installed it? The pump internals could be switched 180 also inside the pump.
A static timing of 0,9 mm is no issue, it starts to run clumsy at idle speed with approximate 1,0 mm or more.

If the internal pump pressure is much to low it runs also as you stated, pherhaps this could be a good start for
finding the problem.

Best Regards
VW Golf Mk1 (Typ 17) 1981 with 1.6 TD
BMW E28 524 TD

Reply #4March 18, 2012, 10:42:08 am

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2012, 10:42:08 am »
The pump was resealed by a fellow member on this board. The car idles a bit low when I can get it to start but it does run ok, just lots of bluish-grey smoke out the tail pipe and black smoke when accelerating. Ive never had to crank it over so many times to get it to start with the other pump.  For that matter, even with dead glowplugs I could get the beast to start..... and for the record I installed 3 new glowplugs.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:49:38 am by srgtlord »

Reply #5March 18, 2012, 01:45:30 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2012, 01:45:30 pm »
0.90mm is stock spec Mk2 NA
stock variance is + or - 0.05
so you are not too advanced on the timing

Was this a pump you had run previously, and sent to be resealed.
Or a pump you have never run before ?

1 tooth off on inj pump is common sometimes on belt job/pump swap.
Maybe double check that if you haven't already.

Also might want to try timing adjustments with engine running - i would start by going more advance - towards engine.

Could also be a combination of the fuel screw being IN too far (too rich - the smoke)
and the throttle arm index being 1 spline too slow (the hard start)

If all else fails - put old pump back on to get verification that its not an engine issue.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 01:47:33 pm by Baron VonZeppelin »

Reply #6March 18, 2012, 02:26:42 pm

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2012, 02:26:42 pm »
This was a new-to-me pump that I purchased from a member of this forum. Maybe the pump is off 1 tooth? I lined everything up just fine but ill double check. Worse comes to worse is there a way to fudge the timing without taking the belt off again?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 02:33:36 pm by srgtlord »

Reply #7March 18, 2012, 03:15:13 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2012, 03:15:13 pm »
You'd need to roll it back around to TDC on flywheel - where cam lock slide will fit - and see if pump lock will slide right in.

If it is 1 tooth off - you have to start over from #1 TDC - cam lock slide shimmed in - cam sprocket loose - tensioner loose - wrench the inj sprocket 1 tooth and get pump lock in. May even need to remove cam sprocket to get enough slack.

I use spring clamps on the intermediate shaft pulley to hold belt tight off the crank sprocket - then wrench the pump sprocket down into next belt cog.
Pump will "spring" back up and belt is tight.
Can move sprocket just enough with the pump lock in place to do this.

If you install belt normally with everything locked - usually you will have slack between crank/intermediate/pump. When all is done - pump is 1 tooth off. You have to "feed" the pump sprocket into next belt cog and it pulls the slack. Always keep watch of flywheel TDC mark.

Reply #8March 18, 2012, 03:25:46 pm

bajacalal

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2012, 03:25:46 pm »
Always keep watch of flywheel TDC mark.

Which, BTW will still move enough to throw you off, even if the car is in gear.

Reply #9March 18, 2012, 04:14:39 pm

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2012, 04:14:39 pm »
I went out and checked the pump sprocket and the locking pin slides in with just a little wiggle room. It is still TDC at the flywheel. Before I put the valve cover back when I first put the belt on I triple checked everything. I might pull the valve cover again just to be absolutely sure, but I doubt it moved after I torqued the cam sprocket down(I had the cam locking tool in place and counterheld the cam pulley). I mean if it jumped time (I do not see how and this is my second timing belt change after 40,000 miles) Pistons would have hit valves and terrible terrible things would have happened.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 04:20:34 pm by srgtlord »

Reply #10March 18, 2012, 04:23:48 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 04:23:48 pm »
I was the one who resealed this pump. It was off a running 1.6 NA motor when I pulled it, it sat for a while full of fuel and everything capped off. It was a clean looking pump inside, no reason to expect any crazy wear. Plus it was off a well running engine.

(sorry my old phone took horrible pictures)




The idle adjustments and max fuel screw were approximately in the stock positions, but they may need tweaking if it is idling too low.

Reply #11March 18, 2012, 04:43:50 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2012, 04:43:50 pm »
I'm thinking you cold pull #1 injector pipe and do a spill test to check for 180 out, but i never tried.

Reply #12March 18, 2012, 06:57:33 pm

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2012, 06:57:33 pm »
The thing is I was able to drive it down the road today so I doubt its 180 degrees out, but covered the entire street with a blanket of whitish greyish smoke. I feel bad for the guy on the motorcycle behind me... 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 07:15:36 pm by srgtlord »

Reply #13March 18, 2012, 07:38:03 pm

srgtlord

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2012, 07:38:03 pm »
So what in the pump would be 180 degrees out? isn't there a woodruff key? Anywho I put the updated injection pump pulley on the older pump because the one that came with it was cracked. I know the old pulleys have 2 holes, so your saying if I put the 2 hole pulley on, rotate 180 degrees and problem solved?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 08:41:29 pm by srgtlord »

Reply #14March 18, 2012, 08:55:35 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Swapped pumps, timing perfect, lots and lots of smoke....
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2012, 08:55:35 pm »
No the two holed pulley only goes on one way because of that woodruff key.  Inside the pump there is a part that goes locks into the input shaft about mid way in the pump itself.  The head of the high pressure pump gets keyed into that.  The part can be installed in two ways, one is correct, the other makes it 180 out.  You can do one of two things.

1. Pull the pump apart and check to be sure the alignment of all the parts is correct.  Only advisable for those knowing how to take pumps apart.

2. Use the hole on the other side of the front pulley as if it were the correct one.  Timing mark would not be visible on the top of the pump as it is now 180 out and on the bottom.  You just want to lock the pump in that manner and reinstall the belt.  All other procedures to get it set on TDC are the same, once you have the belt off you pull the pin, turn the pulley 180 degrees and reset the pin.  Reinstall and tension up the belt. 

Hand crank a couple of revs and try it.  Some adjustment might be required afterwards to get timing on spec.  Do you have a dial gauge?  Use it just like normal. 

Hope that works for you.  DAS