Author Topic: honing  (Read 7826 times)

March 15, 2012, 04:34:39 pm

wdkingery

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honing
« on: March 15, 2012, 04:34:39 pm »
i have my pistons out now. 2 lower compression rings were broken (likely due to ether.)  most other rings with large, credit card thickness gaps; likely the  cause of my low compression and difficult starts. all pistons protrude the same amount, leading to a belief that connecting rods were not bent.

my question is: should i hone? cylinders appear glazed, cross hatching doesn't appear. the "ridge" at the top doesn't appear to be much more than carbon. my mechanical engineer friend says not to hone, as it's just going to make a mess for the little results it yields. he didn't have a hone, and considering i'm in this rebuild for less than $100, i'd like to pass if i could.

any opinions?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 04:41:18 pm by wdkingery »



Reply #1March 15, 2012, 05:00:50 pm

rodpaslow

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Re: honing
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 05:00:50 pm »
My $.02, due it right and "deglaze" the cylinder walls - I personally have no experience with not doing it.  For the cost of a cylinder hone or flex hone for around $100 or less - do you want to be tearing it down again if it doesn't work? In my case my time is worth more than doing it twice.
99' 1.9 1Z Tdi, hybrid pump -1.9 housing & rover internals, 2052 wastegate turbo,.25 hflox nozzles, SDI intake, CTN tranny
96' 1.6 TD Golf, Giles pump, VNT 17, Gas changed to Diesel, Air to Water Int.

Reply #2March 15, 2012, 05:24:43 pm

theman53

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Reply #3March 15, 2012, 08:01:45 pm

410

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Re: honing
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 08:01:45 pm »
If you do decide to deglaze the cylinders, I would use a ball type hone.  They leave a better finish and work better on cylinders with high mileage.  Just keep in mind that the cylinders have to be washed out with hot soapy water to remove the grinding stone material that's left behind by the hone, then dried and oiled right away to keep them from rusting. 

I think it's worth doing especially for controlling oil consumption.  The honing itself takes no time at all.  A few passes on each cylinder and your done.  Cleaning the bores out takes more time than the honing.  I use wd-40 on the cylinders after washing and drying to displace the water.   
Toyota truck 4x4 with Mtdi, M-vnt gt1749va, 11mm pump, fmic, smog .216 nozzles.  Sold!
Working on 1993 4runner mtdi, gtb1756vk, 11mm pump, smog .216 nozzles, custom 1" thick adaptor plate, pd150 intake manifold.

Reply #4March 15, 2012, 09:30:03 pm

wdkingery

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Re: honing
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 09:30:03 pm »
How do I work the hot soapy water with the crank right below this situation?
I have decided to hone.

Reply #5March 15, 2012, 10:35:58 pm

410

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Re: honing
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 10:35:58 pm »
How do I work the hot soapy water with the crank right below this situation?
I have decided to hone.
Man, good question.  If it's just a light deglaze, a damp rag might do the trick.  Solvent doesn't do a good enough job for removing the grit from the hone but a damp cloth should get most of it and then use a good degreaser.  Coleman fuel makes an awesome degreaser but it's very flamable.  Then finish off with some clean oil on a clean rag until the rag stays clean.  The more time you spend cleaning the bores the happier you'll be with the results.
Toyota truck 4x4 with Mtdi, M-vnt gt1749va, 11mm pump, fmic, smog .216 nozzles.  Sold!
Working on 1993 4runner mtdi, gtb1756vk, 11mm pump, smog .216 nozzles, custom 1" thick adaptor plate, pd150 intake manifold.

Reply #6March 16, 2012, 12:19:41 am

Toby

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Re: honing
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 12:19:41 am »
There is a way to do "Rings in the Driveway" and make it work, but if you leave even a tiny bit of grit in the motor it will wear everything out in a very short time. Sometimes less than 1000 miles. Cam, followers, rings, ring lands, crank, and bores will be shot.

So the question is: have you taken the motor out of the car or is this an "in chassis" overhaul you are doing? If that is what you are doing, I can walk you through it.

FWIW, I have done over 100 RITD overhauls and can make it work. Almost nobody else can make them last 20K miles. Mine usually get over 100K miles.

Reply #7March 16, 2012, 01:02:53 am

pointynoggin

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Re: honing
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 01:02:53 am »
Don't use a three stone hone or you might be like me and get slap and have to pull the engine and do it right i.e. bore over. :(
1991 Jetta 1.6TD, Giles Superpump,

Reply #8March 16, 2012, 10:24:16 am

wdkingery

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Re: honing
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 10:24:16 am »
Engine still in car.. In fact, it's literally rings in the driveway!
Continue speaking Toby..

Reply #9March 16, 2012, 10:59:02 am

wdkingery

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Re: honing
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 10:59:02 am »
i tried like hell to take a picture of the cylinder walls.. incapable

Reply #10March 16, 2012, 02:19:27 pm

Toby

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Re: honing
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 02:19:27 pm »
1) Tape over the rod journals with electrical tape. This keeps the crap out and gives some measure of protection to the machined surface. Also tape up the oil hole for the oil pump.

2) Get a drip pan that will catch all of the stuff that drips out of the engine. Later we are going to flush the bores so there will be at least a couple of cups to catch.

3) Turn the crank so the rod journals are 90* to the bores. This gets them out of harms way and makes it so you do not have to rotate it again until everything is flushed.

4)Pack the area at the bottom of the bores with paper towels, or better yet clean rags. Don't be stingy, we want the entire space between the crank and bottom of the bores full, to catch all of the crap that will fall down there. On TDs take some precaution to insure that the hone can not contact the squirters. On the next one that I do, at am going to cut some closed cell foam to be a tight fit in the bores. That will protect the squirters and keep virtually all of the swarf out of the crankcase.

5) Ream the ridges and blow the swarf out. Wipe the bores out with a clean rag.
 
6) Hone the bores with as little lube as possible. I used WD-40, but any light oil should do. Try to get a crosshatch pattern, if you can. This can be next to impossible depending on the hone you use. I like a ball hone driven by and air drill. To get a good crosshatch pattern you will need a rather slow drill and rapid up and down motion. I get this by reducing the air pressure to the drill and gripping the chuck with a shop rag to slow it down further and keep the load on the drill even. This allows me to get a nice slow even speed. It takes practice but it is well worth it for fast break in and long ring life.

7) Wipe as much of your homemade valve grinding compound out of the bores as you can. Start with clean rags and end up with TP wetted with ATF. Every bit of grit that you can get out of the motor now is some that you don't need to worry about later.

8) Remove anything that you had protecting the bottom of the bores and squirters but leave the rags packed in atop the crank. Wipe the bottoms of the bores again until white glove clean.

9) At this point, I like to hose the bores down with a whole can of Brakekleen, getting the top of the block and anything else that might have abrasive grit from the hone on it. When this dries carefully remove all of the rags, again working to keep any trapped grit on/in the rags and out of the motor. The grit is quite tenacious and will hide in any available crack or crevis.

10) Hose down the bores again with Brakekleen, washing the crank and inside of the crank case. Pay special attention to the area between the main caps and the crank. You will have to do some of this from underneath. When you are ABSOLUTELY sure you could do surgery on any surface in there, let everything dry off and proceed to the final cleaning the bores before assembly.

11) Now that you are sure that everything is spotless wide out the top of the bores with clean TP. You will almost certainly find a bunch of gray stuff on the TP where your fingers put the most pressure. You will need to generate a tool to wipe the entire bore with TP wetted with ATF. I use a wooden dowel wrapped in enough foam rubber to be 1/2" (+/-) larger than the bore. Wrap the tool with several layers of TP and soak the TP with ATF. Run that up and down in the first hole and repeat until there is NO TRACE of anything but white TP and red ATF. This usually takes me 3 or 4 changes of TP per bore. I like to conserve time and TP so when I am about to change the TP for clean stuff on any given bore,  I also wipe the next dirty bore to get a head start on cleaning it. When you are completely sure you are not getting any more color, remove the tape from the rod journals and assemble the motor as you normally would, being sure to check ring end gap at the lowest portion of their travel.

12) Run the motor for a few minutes (until hot) and then change the oil and filter. DO NOT use Fram filters. They are absolute crap and will run all of the remaining grit through the motor instead of trapping it. Remember that all oil filters have some kind of bypass where cold oil does not get filtered. On some it is just ballooning of the filter housing that lets contaminated oil leak by the filter media.


 I would also use the lightest oil that you can find for start up since this will be used mainly to flush out any remaining grit and start seating the rings. I would also not use premium oil for the first few thousand miles. Sometimes good oil will not let the rings seat or at least delay seating for up to 10k miles. I have only seen this happen 3 or 4 times in 40 years but it is heartbreaking to have to tear into a new motor to change the rings because it is burning a quart every 500-1000 miles.

Reply #11March 16, 2012, 03:34:13 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: honing
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 03:34:13 pm »
Excellent Toby. Just for that, this thread has been upgraded to FAQ status. It is now linked in the FAQ thread under Engine Rebuilding.

Reply #12March 17, 2012, 12:36:05 am

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: honing
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 12:36:05 am »
Excellent methods Toby.

2 more cents worth - clean deck surface well with prefered solvent - and use quality 2" masking tape to tape off the entire deck area. Then razor cut around the bores. To keep debris out of coolant and oil passages.

Or 3/4" tape running just over all the passages.

Whatever strategy you want - just so that in the end all the little exposed holes in deck are covered/protected.

Another option - after rod journals are taped - wrap crank with aluminum foil for another layer of protection before the rag stuffing step.

Most AutoZone, AdvanceAuto, O'Reillys will have loaner hones - if i'm not mistaken. iirc fwiw

Reply #13March 17, 2012, 02:33:05 am

Toby

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Re: honing
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2012, 02:33:05 am »
I see you too have OCD! ;<)

I have found that cleaning the deck with 120-180 grit sand paper after scraping the gasket surface helps significantly with HG life, as well. I do not usually tape off the deck, in part because of my meticulous head bolt hole prep. I may add that to the post later. It would not be a bad idea and I may do that on the '86 Ranger TD that I have up in the air at the moment.

The tin foil wrap is probably a good idea if you are using a 3 legged hone. I may add that as well.

Reply #14March 17, 2012, 03:14:33 pm

theman53

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Re: honing
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2012, 03:14:33 pm »
I was just going to say you can tape the deck surface, but Baron is already here.

BTW Toby, keep it up. You have been most pleasant since your return here AND very helpful. It is a nice touch.