1.6TD Injectors , GTD Pump HELP PLEASE !!! - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• 1.6TD Injectors , GTD Pump HELP PLEASE !!! by badersbus on 10 Dec, 2011 08:03
• Hi all.
  I am hoping that someone will be able to help me and my son out as we are coming to our wits end with this one.
  He has had a 1.6td rebuilt from sump up , bearings gaskets , head skimmed etc etc and we are at the point of start up. The engine is a 1.6TD eco 1v engine code , but we have fitted a rebuilt GTD pump to it. It starts and revs ,but the cylinder head is leaking like a damn sieve. Firstly No 4 Injector was getting blow by , between the injector body and thread in the head , but we seem to have got that down to a slight bubble when running , hoping this will seal and settle down. We have now discovered that No3 glowplug is leaking , but is tight in the head 
  On top of all this the push-on leak off pipes on the injectors are pushing up and leaking like a fountain everytime you give it some good revs.
  Has anybody has this before ?.
  Is it possible that the GTD pump is delivering fuel at too high a pressure , which the standard ECO injectors cannot handle ? . Are they rated at a lower breaking pressure ? , so pressurising the injectors too much and shoving the push on pipes off , i am at a loss.
  My lad has spent a lot of money on this one , and is getting really down hearted with it now.
  His mate does have a GTD head and injectors , is worth just pulling the head and starting again??
  I would be eternally greatful for any help he can get
  All the best
  Kirk
  the engine in question
  
  
  
• #1 by theman53 on 10 Dec, 2011 10:59
• No, the pump and injectors will be ok with that engine. 99% thinking you have something in the return line back to the tank. Try blowing compressed air into it with the tanks cap off to see if you have flow. If you do then it is good, if it doens't blow fuel out the cap hole or you can't hear bubbling in the tank then it is blocked and you need to unblock it. If it is blocked that is your problem with the return lines on the injectors.
  The injector to head leak sometimes goes away when you drive it. If you took it out make sure to get a new heat shield and torque it by pushing toward the head not pulling/pushing towards the grill of the car.
  
  Glowplug leak??? I am thinking they are a taper type seal so maybe just try buying a new glow plug. The insides could have separated from the outer part and you can't help that. They are fairly cheap and always need replacing so it won't hurt too bad.
  
  BTW I have not much love for the MK1 cars, but this one looks good.
• #2 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 10 Dec, 2011 15:34
• Quote from: badersbus on 10 Dec, 2011 08:03

  Hi all.
  I am hoping that someone will be able to help me and my son out as we are coming to our wits end with this one.
  He has had a 1.6td rebuilt from sump up , bearings gaskets , head skimmed etc etc and we are at the point of start up. The engine is a 1.6TD eco 1v engine code , but we have fitted a rebuilt GTD pump to it. It starts and revs ,but the cylinder head is leaking like a damn sieve. Firstly No 4 Injector was getting blow by , between the injector body and thread in the head ,
  This could either be slight damage to the seating of the head under the shield, or merely the heatshield itself needing to be reset, and redistorted under tightening. but we seem to have got that down to a slight bubble when running , hoping this will seal and settle down.
  Probably
  
  We have now discovered that No3 glowplug is leaking , but is tight in the head  
  Remove glowplug and inspect [it] where heat sheath enters threaded part.  There should be a little gap. If it is crimped down onto the heated part, then plug has been overtightened. Try replacing.
  
  On top of all this the push-on leak off pipes on the injectors are pushing up and leaking like a fountain everytime you give it some good revs.
  Has anybody has this before ?.
   The return lines actually carry almost no diesel from the injector. It is all from the return banjo from the pump. A fountain is normal. Pushing off, however is not, and as already mentioned could be from an undersized return to tank, or partial blockage, or if fountain is within normal limits, then it is merely wrong sized return lines on injectors
  
  
  Is it possible that the GTD pump is delivering fuel at too high a pressure , which the standard ECO injectors cannot handle ? . Are they rated at a lower breaking pressure ? , so pressurising the injectors too much and shoving the push on pipes off , i am at a loss.
  
  The pump can easily produce 600 bar.It therefore merely produces what is needed to open injectors, and [efectively] no more. A little experiment.: Try plugging the small return line that goes to the injectors and the banjo. at the injector end. Now with the injector returns not returning anywhere, start the engine. You should see almost nothing oozing out.  On an injector tester the best injectors bleed off almost nothing.
  
  My lad has spent a lot of money on this one , and is getting really down hearted with it now.
  His mate does have a GTD head and injectors , is worth just pulling the head and starting again??
  I would be eternally greatful for any help he can get.
  Just stay calm. Apart from future headgasket issues, most fuelling leaks can be easily cured or dry up.
  All the best
  Kirk
  the engine in question
  
  
  
• #3 by badersbus on 11 Dec, 2011 12:05
• Hi Fellas.
  Thanks for the replies it is much appreciated . I do confess after nearly 6 hrs outside in the cold yesterday we were getting a bit fraught . Clearer head today and all that   
  I am going to try everything that you have said. I forgot to mention in the first post that the return banjo bolt on the pump has a very small hole in it , pin head size with what looks like small filter guaze inside .. is that normal. I did change that for the type that feeds the pump with about an 1/8th ish hole in it , but that made no difference either.
  When i say a fountain from the injector , i turned the engine off and  the leak off pipe was leaking , when i pulled it off it kept spurting for a good 10 seconds or so , seemed to me to be a lot of pressure in there.
  Just one other thing all the fuel lines are brand new , but i have made the feed 10mm ID and the return 6mm ID . does the return want to be 10mm ID as well ? You can just see them on top of the timing belt cover on the first pic
  Many thanks
  Kirk
• #4 by bajacalal on 11 Dec, 2011 12:32
• This is unrelated, I know, but what kind of intercooler are you using?
• #5 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 11 Dec, 2011 15:15
• Quote from: badersbus on 11 Dec, 2011 12:05

  Hi Fellas.
  Thanks for the replies it is much appreciated . I do confess after nearly 6 hrs outside in the cold yesterday we were getting a bit fraught . Clearer head today and all that   
  I am going to try everything that you have said. I forgot to mention in the first post that the return banjo bolt on the pump has a very small hole in it , pin head size with what looks like small filter guaze inside .. is that normal. I did change that for the type that feeds the pump with about an 1/8th ish hole in it , but that made no difference either.
  The output banjo bolt has to be the one with the sewing needled sized hole and the gauze. Although small, this hole can/does pass several litres per min. Warming the diesel as it does so, and holding back enough dieselin thepump to allow the internal pressureto rise withing it'sadjustable range. A hole as big as the fuel input bolt will drop the internal pressure down to a few psi, and give a large flow volume and also give no dynamic advance.
  
  When i say a fountain from the injector, i turned the engine off and  the leak off pipe was leaking , when i pulled it off it kept spurting for a good 10 seconds or so , seemed to me to be a lot of pressure in there.
  From a rev-up, the pump possibly contains 150psi, which has to leak down.
  
  
  Just one other thing all the fuel lines are brand new , but i have made the feed 10mm ID and the return 6mm ID . does the return want to be 10mm ID as well ? You can just see them on top of the timing belt cover on the first pic
  The hoses to and from the pump are fine, only I think transparent is best for at least the supply, because it is part of the fault diagnosis procedure to be able to see the diesel.
  Many thanks
  Kirk
  
• #6 by badersbus on 12 Dec, 2011 04:03
• Hi Mark.
  Thanks for the reply again. I apologies for my ignorance on this one , but i am a bit confused on what banjo bolt goes where.
  Here is a pic of the pump before it was refurbed and fitted to the car.
  
  Does the bolt with the big hole go into the hole on the left of this image , the feed from the tank ?
  And does the bolt with the needle size hole go into the hole on the right hand side of this image behind the throttle cable bracket , in the return from the injectors ?.
  Sorry to be a bit thick as i said 
  I think i am going to take the pipe off  where it joins the return pipe to the tank on the cam belt cover and put it in a can of diesel to see if that works , if it still tries to lift the leak off pipe off , i know there is a blockage in the pipes around the pump , or a problem in the pump .. yes ?
  If not there is a blockage from that joint back to the tank .. yes ?
  All the best
   Kirk
• #7 by badersbus on 12 Dec, 2011 04:07
• Quote from: bajacalal on 11 Dec, 2011 12:32

  This is unrelated, I know, but what kind of intercooler are you using?
  

  Hi Baja.
  The intercooler is from a Renault Master van , that has been modded to fit . Dont know if they are available in California though. I have pics of the modding i have done to it if you need pics 
  Kirk
• #8 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 12 Dec, 2011 05:00
• Quote from: badersbus on 12 Dec, 2011 04:03

  Hi Mark.
  Thanks for the reply again. I apologies for my ignorance on this one , but i am a bit confused on what banjo bolt goes where.
  Here is a pic of the pump before it was refurbed and fitted to the car.
  
  Does the bolt with the big hole go into the hole on the left of this image , the feed from the tank ?
  And does the bolt with the needle size hole go into the hole on the right hand side of this image behind the throttle cable bracket , in the return from the injectors ?.
  Sorry to be a bit thick as i said 
  I think i am going to take the pipe off  where it joins the return pipe to the tank on the cam belt cover and put it in a can of diesel to see if that works , if it still tries to lift the leak off pipe off , i know there is a blockage in the pipes around the pump , or a problem in the pump .. yes ?
  If not there is a blockage from that joint back to the tank .. yes ?
  All the best
   Kirk
  

  
  
  You are correct with regards the banjo bolts. I guess one would think that a mesh filter might go at the entrance to the pump, being there is only one filter, but it's function is purely to hold back any crud created in the pump itself.
  
  The bolt with the large holes goes to the front and to through the single banjo, whilst the microholed bolt is that back one below the 'spaceship' aneroid..
  return
  When I have pulled off an injector offtake pipe whilst engine running, I get a fountain. It may even look like it comes out of the injectors, but in actual fact, the injector barbs are all unrestricting in any way so the diesel spurt is freely traveling through them from the link to the small barb on the pump's outlet. IIRC the ratio of cross sectional area of the two barbs is about 20 to 1
  
  'Shortening' the retun pipe for the test sounds sensible. The main rigid fuel lines are only about 5.5mm ID IIRC.
• #9 by badersbus on 12 Dec, 2011 05:31
• Mny thanks Mark.
  Will try that first then
  Kirk 
• #10 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 12 Dec, 2011 09:37
• Quote from: badersbus on 12 Dec, 2011 05:31

  Mny thanks Mark.
  Will try that first then
  Kirk  
  

  Usually the injector spillage pipes push on easy, but very soon the barbs cling on so that they are really hard to pull off without damage, so it pays to make them an inch or so longer than you might, so that ends can be trimmed at least once
  
  EDIT: ergo if they can be conveniently pulled off without pushing 'n' pulling, after a short period of use,  then they may be wrongly sized
• #11 by badersbus on 24 Dec, 2011 06:28
• Ok Guys.
  Seemed to have cured the problem. My son in his quest for a nice looking engine bay wanted to get rid of the yellow hard fuel lines to the pump. He decided to slip some heat shrink over the pipes and shrink it down , you can see it in the first pic.
  He used a little too much heat on one bends on the return behind the pump and collapsed the pipe in on itself. You could'nt see it from the outside , i only discovered it when i split the pipes at the joint on the cambelt cover. I blew a couple of psi back to the tank , bubbling like a good un. I then unbolted the hard return pipe on the pump and there you go .... blocked solid.
  I have renewed with a longer length of bleed off pipe , replaced the banjo bolt with the small hole type , and she seems to run like a good un now.
  
  Question  now we have her running , whats the best way to run in this new engine. Can't drive it yet as no brakes , suspension wants setting up etc. What you guys thinks.
  Many thanks for all the help
  Kirk
• #12 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 24 Dec, 2011 07:55
• WRT breaking in, do not let it idle unneccessarily.
  Did you use chrome rings? If so they take longer to truely break in. Use cheap multigrade for the first oil.
  Definitely not synthetic, which is too slippery.
  Regular short bursts of reasonable loading are good.
  Any hills in Sheffield? I'm sure I saw a few round Skipton .
  
  So I take it there is a colour theme going on here. Covering the flow and the return from the pump unfortunately removes a very important diagnostic tool.Not that the car will go wrong for years of course
   Maybe a secret window under a length of unshrunk covering would do it...
• #13 by badersbus on 26 Dec, 2011 05:44
• Thanks for the reply Mark.
  Yes i said to him about the clear pipe and the ability to see any bubbles etc . Kids eh !!.
  He wants to change the pipe any way back to clear but can't seem to find a supply for it . I think it needs clear pipe , not the stuff with the weave through it , any ideas/ links etc ??
  The oil in it at the minute is semi sythetic , but it has only been run for about 2 minutes. Is it worth taking this out now and changing it to a mineral oil with a new filter, as i said we can,t drive the thing yet as it is not roadworthy ,
  All the best
  Kirk