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MK3 Golf Big Build
by
kwikdubbz
on 27 Sep, 2011 21:25
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Alright, I have a 93 Golf TD awaiting big changes. This is my first diesel build and will be looking for lots of info, opinions, suggestions, how to's and how not to's. i am no stranger to building fast cars. I grew up on the race track and most of my experience is with gasser V8's V6's and 4 bangers. This however is my very first diesel adventure. My goal is around the 250+ whp, mean while keeping the mechanical pump, this is where Giles will come in handy I'm sure. this is going to be a complete tear down and rebuild of the powertrain. i will be replacing pistons, con rods and crank. there will definitely be head work. i have done an extensive amount of research thus far but i would really love to hear from all of you. i am very open to what any and all of you have to say. this is going to take me quite a while to build as i am on a first year apprenticeship wage at the moment and am planning on going to school in January. i do understand that power cost big money so im not looking for a budget build here BUT i will be looking for bargains any where i can. Im hoping to have the car parked and get started in the next 2 weeks. i thank you all in advance for any and all help and info you care to share. I am looking forward to this project probably more than any other car i have built. Please feel free to comment or make your suggestions at any time. i will read them all.
Devvon (kwikdubbz)
p.s. i apologize for any of my horrible spelling lol
heres my baby.
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#1
by
RadoTD
on 27 Sep, 2011 22:52
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Very interested to see where this goes
What are you planning to do with the car? Do you want a quick daily or a drag queen? Not sure what your experience is like with small displacement/high boost engines, but they can be interesting to drive.
A big VNT + nitrous or a fairly large set of compounds will likely be required.. or even if my math is right, what I'm running; compound K14/K24 should comfortable put 200 at the wheels, add a 50shot on top of that should give you what you're looking for. It'll be a while before I can confirm how much power that turbo setup can efficiently do though
My honest opinion though, is move this over to the TDI section. Get yourself some 16.something:1 pistons and run 250whp or more comfortably. I've always got my eye out for a smokin deal on a TDI head and some pistons. All I'd need after those is a cummins 4BT injection pump to make an mTDI to daily at 200hp+ and who knows how much on laughing gas
I'll definitely be watching this though!
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#2
by
gldgti
on 28 Sep, 2011 00:15
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if i was on a 1st year apprentice wage i'd be leavking it stock and driving around happy getting a reliable 900km/tank and with a smile from ear to ear :-)
better still, take RadoTD's advice, get a TDI or even just another TD engine, build it up on a stand and keep driving your awesome little mk3 around as it is for a good while longer.
I had a 94 mk3 TD for 4 years, did 160,000km in it and it is the best car i've ever owned.
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#3
by
kwikdubbz
on 28 Sep, 2011 04:51
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I have owned and daily drive an 89 Turbo supra with a stout 734 whp, I used to race and drive a 91 Ford escort gt that my uncle and I bolted a cummins holeset onto and boosted to 28psi. Just to name a few. I'm no stranger to power or big boost. My goal with this car is track contender and street monster. I understand the tdi swap idea. But that's to simple and too many people are doing that for big power. I'm not saying anything bad about it, people usually stick with what's tried, tested and true. its just too main stream for me. I like standing out and doing what people say is can't or wont be done. Gldgti, I would get another td and do this but I've gone 5 years without building a car and its time to get back to it. The gf has an 86 Wolfsburg Scirocco that we can use while my mistress get an overhaul. Thanx for the interest guys and will do my best to keep you all updated as much as possible.
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#4
by
RadoTD
on 28 Sep, 2011 07:54
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Oh damn, that's a lot of power for a mk3 supra! What I was referring to is more ending up with a 1000rpm power band if you're just running one turbo
Sticking with the AAZ is awesome though! I'll be happy to see another one pushing the limits.
The biggest thing that I would look into is somehow increasing the volume of the precombustion chamber. Certain alloys of inconel work harden quite badly so boring it out may not be a viable option. The problem is that if it cracks and falls apart in the combustion chamber, it'll leave you searching for a new motor. If a larger displacement engine has a precup that fits the head, that would be the absolute best option. That would be quite a lucky find though.
I dropped my compression down to about 20.5:1 from 22.5:1 with a thicker head gasket, but that's not actually where you want the compression lowered. If you need to be able to start it in the winter without a few hours on the block heater, I wouldn't go under 20:1 but if it's just in the summer, 18.5:1 should work on a rebuilt engine
Also, I would suggest going compounds. Partly because of the looks when you tell people your little diesel has 2 turbos and partly because it'll help extend your power band as much as possible
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#5
by
kwikdubbz
on 28 Sep, 2011 08:34
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i kinda wanted to stay away from compounds however if i can get a wider power band that trumps my original ideals dont it lol. i have a turbo from an 86 Buick Grand National destined for the little AAZ. do you think it is at all worth coupling the stock turbo with the Buick turbo, if this isnt an option, i also have a turbo from a Volvo 740 and one from a 2 gen talon. once the build starts i will also be in close contact with Giles because i want to try and get more RPM as well, not a tone, i am looking for around a 63-6500 red line limit. as for the pistons i've been on the hunt and asking around for some decent lower comp pistons, 20.5:1 is my lowest desirable limit with compression. and as for spray i still havent made my mind up yet between nitrous, meth or propane.
now,
any suggestions on Transmissions. considering my car track record im sure i will get bored with this power soon enough and will be looking for more. i've heard that a tranny from an AHU will be stout enough but again this is my first diesel, first VW actually.
i apologize for how long this thread my be before any actual work gets done but i also dont want to go into this totally blind.
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#6
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 28 Sep, 2011 08:44
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i kinda wanted to stay away from compounds however if i can get a wider power band that trumps my original ideals dont it lol. i have a turbo from an 86 Buick Grand National destined for the little AAZ. do you think it is at all worth coupling the stock turbo with the Buick turbo, if this isnt an option, i also have a turbo from a Volvo 740 and one from a 2 gen talon. once the build starts i will also be in close contact with Giles because i want to try and get more RPM as well, not a tone, i am looking for around a 63-6500 red line limit. as for the pistons i've been on the hunt and asking around for some decent lower comp pistons, 20.5:1 is my lowest desirable limit with compression. and as for spray i still havent made my mind up yet between nitrous, meth or propane.
now,
any suggestions on Transmissions. considering my car track record im sure i will get bored with this power soon enough and will be looking for more. i've heard that a tranny from an AHU will be stout enough but again this is my first diesel, first VW actually.
i apologize for how long this thread my be before any actual work gets done but i also dont want to go into this totally blind.
first off, Propane is a fuel, Nitrous is an oxidizer, and methanol is usually injected with water, to keep the EGTs in check..
all are different chemicals, and do different things, they really cant even be compared..
Propane will make your EGTs go THRU THE ROOF, because its just like throwing MORE diesel into the cylinder every cycle..
propane will make more power when you run out of fuel early, but being that your gonna be gilesified, you dont have to worry about that.
Meth will do almost nothing by its self, not without water mixed in, or should i say, you wont be using its full potential..
water/meth injection is usually used when you have unusually high EGTs, and cant bring them down, no matter what you do..
Nitrous is an oxidizer, so as it burns, oxygen is produced, and it also acts as a chemical intercooler before it is burned..
nitrous is the only thing i would be running on my engine, then water/meth if my EGTs are too high still..
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#7
by
kwikdubbz
on 28 Sep, 2011 08:48
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thanks a ton R.O.R-2.0, ive never used either. just heard lots of people suggesting one or the other. my mind is set now. nitrous has been added to my shopping list
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#8
by
RabbitJockey
on 28 Sep, 2011 08:53
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i kinda wanted to stay away from compounds however if i can get a wider power band that trumps my original ideals dont it lol. i have a turbo from an 86 Buick Grand National destined for the little AAZ. do you think it is at all worth coupling the stock turbo with the Buick turbo, if this isnt an option, i also have a turbo from a Volvo 740 and one from a 2 gen talon. once the build starts i will also be in close contact with Giles because i want to try and get more RPM as well, not a tone, i am looking for around a 63-6500 red line limit. as for the pistons i've been on the hunt and asking around for some decent lower comp pistons, 20.5:1 is my lowest desirable limit with compression. and as for spray i still havent made my mind up yet between nitrous, meth or propane.
now,
any suggestions on Transmissions. considering my car track record im sure i will get bored with this power soon enough and will be looking for more. i've heard that a tranny from an AHU will be stout enough but again this is my first diesel, first VW actually.
i apologize for how long this thread my be before any actual work gets done but i also dont want to go into this totally blind.
to make 250hp at 5000rpms you will need atleast 34psi and 27 lbs/min of flow. i don't think the buick turbo will be a good choice, looks like too much surging and also not enough pr. it would probably be a good turbo in a compound setup tho because it can produce the flow you need, just not at that high of a pressure. t04e super 50 trim looks good for a single turbo tho.
do u know specifically what the other two turbos are?
there are alot better options for aaz turbos than 1.6 due to the larger displacement.
you're not going to find low compression pistons, ull have to lower compression other ways, i don't recommend at thicker head gasket. machining the pistons or porting around the valve outlets and ccing them so they all match is a good option imo. but i have no experience with either, and it is all unchartered risky territory.
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#9
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 28 Sep, 2011 09:04
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i kinda wanted to stay away from compounds however if i can get a wider power band that trumps my original ideals dont it lol. i have a turbo from an 86 Buick Grand National destined for the little AAZ. do you think it is at all worth coupling the stock turbo with the Buick turbo, if this isnt an option, i also have a turbo from a Volvo 740 and one from a 2 gen talon. once the build starts i will also be in close contact with Giles because i want to try and get more RPM as well, not a tone, i am looking for around a 63-6500 red line limit. as for the pistons i've been on the hunt and asking around for some decent lower comp pistons, 20.5:1 is my lowest desirable limit with compression. and as for spray i still havent made my mind up yet between nitrous, meth or propane.
now,
any suggestions on Transmissions. considering my car track record im sure i will get bored with this power soon enough and will be looking for more. i've heard that a tranny from an AHU will be stout enough but again this is my first diesel, first VW actually.
i apologize for how long this thread my be before any actual work gets done but i also dont want to go into this totally blind.
the buick turbo, i dont know much about.. but it sounds like trev knows something about it..
the volvo turbo could be one of 2 turbos.. but its probably a garrett T3, the other one being a mitsu turbo i believe..
the eclipse turbo, it should be a mitsu TD04-13G
you should just look for 2 turbos suitable to use in a compound setup..
idk if any of your turbos would play nicely together, in a compound setup..
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#10
by
RabbitJockey
on 28 Sep, 2011 09:37
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i kinda wanted to stay away from compounds however if i can get a wider power band that trumps my original ideals dont it lol. i have a turbo from an 86 Buick Grand National destined for the little AAZ. do you think it is at all worth coupling the stock turbo with the Buick turbo, if this isnt an option, i also have a turbo from a Volvo 740 and one from a 2 gen talon. once the build starts i will also be in close contact with Giles because i want to try and get more RPM as well, not a tone, i am looking for around a 63-6500 red line limit. as for the pistons i've been on the hunt and asking around for some decent lower comp pistons, 20.5:1 is my lowest desirable limit with compression. and as for spray i still havent made my mind up yet between nitrous, meth or propane.
now,
any suggestions on Transmissions. considering my car track record im sure i will get bored with this power soon enough and will be looking for more. i've heard that a tranny from an AHU will be stout enough but again this is my first diesel, first VW actually.
i apologize for how long this thread my be before any actual work gets done but i also dont want to go into this totally blind.
the buick turbo, i dont know much about.. but it sounds like trev knows something about it..
the volvo turbo could be one of 2 turbos.. but its probably a garrett T3, the other one being a mitsu turbo i believe..
the eclipse turbo, it should be a mitsu TD04-13G
you should just look for 2 turbos suitable to use in a compound setup..
idk if any of your turbos would play nicely together, in a compound setup..
the buick turbo is a 60 trim t3, do u know what trim the volvo t3 is? i don't think there is any t3 that will work for 250hp with out being compounded tho, 13g is probably too small but i don't know with out looking. even when compounding you are still limited by the flow capacity of the lp turbo.
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#11
by
RadoTD
on 28 Sep, 2011 11:30
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He is planning to run nitrous as well though, so only needs a turbo setup for 200hp. Also, that 250hp at 34psi/27lb/min, is that crank or wheel hp? Seems a bit high to be wheel hp to me.
As far as transmissions go, the best option is probably an 02A. Lots of people say that the 02J is stronger, but the internals are very very similar, so that's not worth the effort. 02A is good for ~350ft lbs if you abuse it or anywhere up to about 500ft lbs if you drive it nicely. Anywhere past that, you'll need to look at an 02M, but that's expensive and a lot more work to fit in. Gusset the shift forks and you're good for a LOT of power through an 02M, but 02A's are still pretty strong transmissions.
One thing to think about with water/meth is that it'll raise peak cylinder pressures a lot for the hp gain you get out of it. Look at an air/water intercooler well before water/meth to keep your EGT's in check.
And about propane, search for a thread I started about propane injection. A bunch of good info in that one, but I was steered away because the inconel precups in these engines tend to get hot spots and pre detonate propane. You'll likely blow your head off before getting any significant power gains
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#12
by
kwikdubbz
on 28 Sep, 2011 12:00
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K the Turbo set up is official now. I will run a compound set up. After a bunch of reading I have found thar my turbos wont communicate properly. So I will do my homework and find the right turbos. I'll save the Buick Turbo for the girlfriends scirroco. And I think I'm going to go with a built 02A to put that power to the ground. And ideally I would like 250 whp before spray if I can get away with it. I want n02 for an extra little surprise for haters in their GTR's and Porsche's.
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#13
by
RabbitJockey
on 28 Sep, 2011 18:36
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if the volvo turbo is only a 40 or 45 trim it might work well with the 60 trim, a 13g might work well with the 60 trim as well, but i don't know with out doing the math, i just understand the principles and theory behind. the small turbo is able to put out a higher psi and flow more than it ever could because the big turbo is putting already pressurized air into it. and with the big turbo it allows you to get all the benefits and extra flow of a large turbo with out having to worry about slow spool up or surging. also if u are shooting for above 250whp i think the turbos still need to sized to that somewhat, because if ur spraying water and meth and n2o in, its gotta come out through the turbo as well, but i don't know if the sizing would be the same as if u were shooting for those numbers regardless or what.
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#14
by
RadoTD
on 28 Sep, 2011 23:22
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I made a post in the FAQ section where I went over the math of sizing compounds. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about it
I'd look at something like a K24/GT28 or so and go from there but take a look at how your turbos compare and see what might work