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Poll: Convinced into a state of uncertainty
by
camboscams
on 11 Aug, 2011 18:26
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So after i burned my hand on my intake tube after a mildly spirited drive the other day, i am convinced that an intercooler is in my future. I've scoured the internet looking at all the types and sizes, but after doing some quick measuring i don't see any of them fitting well. As far as an air to air goes i've got a newer plastic endcapped radiator and an ac compressor that doesn't work so my space is limited and an outlet on each side looks like its out of the picture due to the nonexistent space on the driverside of the radiator for the tube to return. And about an air to water i know as much as i can read about and search this forum, they seem like they should work well but like i said, so size wise they seem like the easy answer but not the cheapest. So i'm calling on whoever has intercooled a Mk1 to share your success or failure.
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#1
by
burn_your_money
on 12 Aug, 2011 04:52
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I don't know your setup so this is a blind statement but if your turbo is running way out of it's efficiency range an intercooler isn't going to solve the problem, just bandaid it.
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#2
by
nathan_b
on 12 Aug, 2011 06:14
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I don't know your setup so this is a blind statement but if your turbo is running way out of it's efficiency range an intercooler isn't going to solve the problem, just bandaid it.
I beg to argue.
example: running 18psi on k14 unintercooled, --obviously out of efficiency range,
add intercooled, boost drops to 15,-- in efficiency range. It is not always bandaiding, sometimes it makes the situation optimal..
But Burn, I get your point, feeling the intake after running is NOOOOTTT any indicator of needing an intercooler... haha.
Sorry man, the intake is always going to be hot, it is connected to the head. haha
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#3
by
CRSMP5
on 12 Aug, 2011 09:18
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Nothing Leves Stock on vortex was thinking of building a rad/intercooler combo for mk1 chassis.. intergrating the 2 into 1 so one side is rad.. other cooler.. so ac has no room issues..
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#4
by
8v-of-fury
on 12 Aug, 2011 10:03
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You have a non working ac compressor.. Was the car originally ac? Or just the motor that's in it? Reason I ask is the ac cars have a LOT less room to work with in the rain tray.. Which if your car is non ac, have you considered a raintray mount? What about a hood scoop? Mount the IC over the trans? Beside the battery essentially? Have a Formula hood like the 70-73 Trans-Am's
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#5
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 12 Aug, 2011 12:04
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I don't know your setup so this is a blind statement but if your turbo is running way out of it's efficiency range an intercooler isn't going to solve the problem, just bandaid it.
I beg to argue.
example: running 18psi on k14 unintercooled, --obviously out of efficiency range,
add intercooled, boost drops to 15,-- in efficiency range. It is not always bandaiding, sometimes it makes the situation optimal..
But Burn, I get your point, feeling the intake after running is NOOOOTTT any indicator of needing an intercooler... haha.
Sorry man, the intake is always going to be hot, it is connected to the head. haha
sorry man, but the turbo is still putting out 18 (or more) psi at the outlet of the turbo.. its the pressure drop from the intercooler cooling the air, and making it smaller, along with any restrictions it may have..
the turbo IS NOT coming back into its efficiency range.. the turbo did not change anything, the intercooler did. hell, the turbo doesnt even know you intercooled it..
and you saying that the intake is always going to be hot.. yea.. right..
i can go for a run up the hill @ 100 mph, with a TINY intercooler (4"x10"x1.5") and then pull in my drive way, pop the hood, and the intake is stone cold..
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#6
by
8v-of-fury
on 12 Aug, 2011 12:08
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I think what Nathan meant is that you can then effectively lower your boost output to 15 and make more power.
Because you are now in its efficiency range, and intercooled.
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#7
by
RabbitJockey
on 12 Aug, 2011 13:57
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intercooler will actually keep you into a more efficient part of the map, because the cooled air becomes denser so you are moving more of the air into cylinder with the same pressure, and less drive pressure to do so as well. but at the end of the day any given turbo can only flow so much air efficiently
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#8
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 12 Aug, 2011 14:03
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intercooler will actually keep you into a more efficient part of the map, because the cooled air becomes denser so you are moving more of the air into cylinder with the same pressure, and less drive pressure to do so as well. but at the end of the day any given turbo can only flow so much air efficiently
at the end of the day tho, the compressor of the turbo doesnt know whats in front of it, just that its making pressure..
the compressor is still making 18 psi @ the outlet no matter how many intercoolers it has (or doesnt have)
the engine, and the turbine side of the turbo are the only things to recognize the intercooler..
an intercooler DOES NOT make the cold side of a turbo more efficient.. plain and simple..
like was stated, its a band aid. it takes your in-efficient air, cools it down, and makes it somewhat more efficient..
the TURBO is still spinning its brains making hot boost tho.. the IC is just cooling it off so its not so hot. it DOES NOT MAKE the cold side come out of inefficient boost levels..
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#9
by
burn_your_money
on 12 Aug, 2011 14:38
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at the end of the day tho, the compressor of the turbo doesnt know whats in front of it, just that its making pressure..
Those are my thoughts exactly. It's like removing the intake hose so that you are getting zero boost and saying that the turbo is in it's efficiency range because you are seeing 0 psi on your gauge. Meanwhile your turbo is about to explode.
I'm not a turbo expert though and if I'm wrong I would appreciate some facts to explain otherwise.
To kind of answer your question though, check out the mk1 build threads here
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19591.0Also here, although you aren't likely to find many diesels
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4069002-The-Build-threads-Thread
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#10
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 12 Aug, 2011 14:45
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at the end of the day tho, the compressor of the turbo doesnt know whats in front of it, just that its making pressure..
Those are my thoughts exactly. It's like removing the intake hose so that you are getting zero boost and saying that the turbo is in it's efficiency range because you are seeing 0 psi on your gauge. Meanwhile your turbo is about to explode.
I'm not a turbo expert though and if I'm wrong I would appreciate some facts to explain otherwise.
To kind of answer your question though, check out the mk1 build threads here
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19591.0
Also here, although you aren't likely to find many diesels
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4069002-The-Build-threads-Thread
i had a feeling i was on the right track with my thoughts..
the air temp at the turbo outlet is still X* no matter how many intercoolers are behind the turbo..
intercoolers DO NOT change the turbos efficiency, only the AIR FLOWING THRU THE INTERCOOLER..
/endrant
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#11
by
camboscams
on 12 Aug, 2011 15:30
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Sorry about the vagueness on my setup. a 1.6l and a vnt-15. On the run that i mentioned above i hadn't even gone over 7 psi. (in the process of making a controller) so i doubt that the turbo is anywhere near running out of its range.
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#12
by
nathan_b
on 12 Aug, 2011 18:42
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Hhahahaha, stone cold intake at 100mph.. seriously dude??
it is attached to the cylinder head, are you telling me that your engine is sooo efficient that 1100f+ does not radiate anything greater than ambient temp 2" away??
And the intake volume does change the efficiency of the turbo, there is more cushion between the turbines. Your logic is also stating that there is no correlation between the intake/exhaust turbines in the general efficiency of the turbo.
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#13
by
RabbitJockey
on 12 Aug, 2011 19:46
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with an intercooler the turbo can move the same amount of air with much less effort, the turbo doesn't become more efficient, but because of the cooler there is less pressure for the turbo to fight (which means your exhaust side will have to do less work). the flow of fluids is a really tough thing to understand sometimes, i work with everyday, i work on pft machines, ventilators, and a bunch of other medical crap. temperature and atmospheric pressures effect everything a lot.
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#14
by
rabbitman
on 13 Aug, 2011 11:44
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Hhahahaha, stone cold intake at 100mph.. seriously dude??
it is attached to the cylinder head, are you telling me that your engine is sooo efficient that 1100f+ does not radiate anything greater than ambient temp 2" away??
I don't know about your engine but mine doesn't radiate 1100F from the head.
.....the 1100F stuff goes out the exhaust pipe. Ever think about what the coolant does? I think it maintains a coolant temp of 180-195 degrees and so I don't think it's possible for the head to radiate anything hotter than that.
Some have "let" the coolant drain out and I'm sure radiated more than it should have.....
I don't have a turbo but IIRC I can touch my intake manifold after a good cruise and not get burned until it's sat and heat soaked for a bit, kinda tells me there isn't much heat getting to it from the head while driving.