Can't set injection pump timing with dial indicator

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

I just put the timing belt back on after a new head gasket install. I also had the injection pump out to replace the leaky advance piston o-rings (both sides).

Everything was lined up when I tightened the cam sprocket to lock the cam taper (TDC pointers lined up on flywheel, pin in IP sprocket, cam plate in can slot, both #1 valves pointing up). Rotated engine a few times with no interference and checked timing again and it was spot on.

The problem I'm having with setting the IP timing is that after setting the dial indicator with the 2.5 mm preload while on TDC, rotated crank CCW till gauge stops moving and setting gauge to zero, then rotate crank CW to TDC and turn IP in either direction  to set the timing but the gauge does not move. The advance lever was pushed all the way in. Could I have scwered up the timing when I replaced the advance piston o-rings? Could the pump be 180 deg off? How do I check?

[burn_your_money]

Even if it was 180 off it would still give you the correct amount of lift.

How are you zeroing the gauge? Rotating the face or physically moving the depth of the gauge?

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

I have succesfully timed the IP before with the dial gauge. That was right after I bought the Jetta a few years ago and r&r'ed the timing belt. I was following the same Bently procedure. The only thing different this time is I r&r'ed the IP to replace leaky advance piston seals.

I zeroed the gauge with the dial, per the Bently.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Forget swinging the pump for the time being, as its just fine adjustment of rotating engine.

Set your dial gauge  with 1mm over zero by adjusting gauge body by sliding gauge into extension and watching needle rotate once [or there abouts] when engine is positioned off [before] TDC.

Then clamp gauge then zero by rotating dial.

Then rotate engine crank clockwise twice whilst watching gauge.
Gauge must have enough range to cover pump cam lift of 2.3mm for 1.6 and about 3mm for AAZ types.

Some gauges barely have enough range and can stick so rest finger on end of gauge to ensure gauge falls fully. 

If by doing above you get 4 rises and falls of the aforementioned values then you are good to go! 

Get to #1TDC and read value off gauge. If not what you want, then twist pump to suit...

[southernman]

I have succesfully timed the IP before with the dial gauge. That was right after I bought the Jetta a few years ago and r&r'ed the timing belt. I was following the same Bently procedure. The only thing different this time is I r&r'ed the IP to replace leaky advance piston seals.

I zeroed the gauge with the dial, per the Bently.

Eco, I just went through the same thing a little while back, and it turned out I had the pump sprocket/timing off by 180 degrees. The reason was, I couldn't see the very lightly stamped "0" on the sprocket due to a light layer of dust/dirt. Once I thoroughly cleaned the sprocket, I could see the mark; I used a black Sharpie to fill in the 0, and reset the pump and timing.

Once the timing mark was aligned, it was a simple process to finish timing it with the gauge.

Also note, that you can use the "chiseled" marks on the pump mount and the corresponding mark on the injector pump. Just line them up to get you in the ball part and the car will start. Using the 1mm spec on timing, I find that you will usually rotate the pump counter-clockwise about .050 thousands and you will be very close to dead on the advance specification.

I hope this helps.

Southernman

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

I have succesfully timed the IP before with the dial gauge. That was right after I bought the Jetta a few years ago and r&r'ed the timing belt. I was following the same Bently procedure. The only thing different this time is I r&r'ed the IP to replace leaky advance piston seals.

I zeroed the gauge with the dial, per the Bently.

Eco, I just went through the same thing a little while back, and it turned out I had the pump sprocket/timing off by 180 degrees. The reason was, I couldn't see the very lightly stamped "0" on the sprocket due to a light layer of dust/dirt. Once I thoroughly cleaned the sprocket, I could see the mark; I used a black Sharpie to fill in the 0, and reset the pump and timing.

Once the timing mark was aligned, it was a simple process to finish timing it with the gauge.

Also note, that you can use the "chiseled" marks on the pump mount and the corresponding mark on the injector pump. Just line them up to get you in the ball part and the car will start. Using the 1mm spec on timing, I find that you will usually rotate the pump counter-clockwise about .050 thousands and you will be very close to dead on the advance specification.

I hope this helps.

Southernman

Bentley procedure is as clear as mud I believe. Never look at my Quantum one.

However, it doesn't matter whether 180 or 90 out, the #1 issue was that "the dial gauge doesn't move" If you get no reading then you have no accurate timing. Aligning notch on pump should be good enough for a basic start up though

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

Yeah Bently sucks, it leads you on a series of steps without explaining what's happening. Using their procedure, after zeroing the gauge and rotating cranksahft c.w. to TDC, I can't get the gauge to move by rotating the IP.

Can you give me another procedure on when to zero the gauge and explain what's happening?
I assume that is an important step in getting the correct timing.

Forget swinging the pump for the time being, as its just fine adjustment of rotating engine.

Set your dial gauge  with 1mm over zero by adjusting gauge body by sliding gauge into extension and watching needle rotate once [or there abouts] when engine is positioned off [before] TDC.

Then clamp gauge then zero by rotating dial.

Then rotate engine crank clockwise twice whilst watching gauge.
Gauge must have enough range to cover pump cam lift of 2.3mm for 1.6 and about 3mm for AAZ types.

Some gauges barely have enough range and can stick so rest finger on end of gauge to ensure gauge falls fully. 

If by doing above you get 4 rises and falls of the aforementioned values then you are good to go! 

Get to #1TDC and read value off gauge. If not what you want, then twist pump to suit...

[theman53]

Think of it as a cam lobe you are trying to measure when it hits 1.0mm. When you put the gauge in first it hits the lobe of the cam. When you roll the engine back the cam lobe gets smaller and your gauge doesn't touch. You then have to run the gauge down to the bottom where it touches *if it were a cam think base circle*. Then you may have a reading of 2.5893493mm doesn't matter. Put the gauge FACE to 0 then turn the engine back to TDC. Adjust the pump to your preferred spec anywhere from .95 to 1.05 is the general consensus IIRC.

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

I think I've got it timed with the dial gauge. The Bently says to turn the crankshaft ccw until the dial indicator stops .oving then zero the pointer. It didn't say to turn it very slowly because  the first stop happens within 2 to 3 degrees and easy to overshoot and the next stop is 90 degrees away and if the dial is zeroed at the second stop, then rotating the IP does not move the dial.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Yeah Bently sucks, it leads you on a series of steps without explaining what's happening. Using their procedure, after zeroing the gauge and rotating cranksahft c.w. to TDC, I can't get the gauge to move by rotating the IP.

Can you give me another procedure on when to zero the gauge and explain what's happening?
I assume that is an important step in getting the correct timing.

This following explanation is quite long but just read through the paragraphs and nod to youself as you visualise each stage, and it should help {I hope }

Imagine the cam plate inside the pump is a circular fairground ride, like the olde horses and in the process of going right round you have 4 humps and  you are trying to measure a point half way up one of the humps. This is #1 injector's hump! On a 1.6 engine these humps are 2.3mm, and you wish to find the place where you are 1mm up.Your starting point for measuring is in the flat area between the humps.

The first thing to do is to check the scale and range of your gauge. They are all annoyingly different!  
Mine is scaled 15-10-5- 0-5-10-15 thou, and so counts up and down.  Therefore for 1mm setting I'm looking for 39 thou, which is round once and +9 big divisions.

The other thing to make  sure of is the amount of travel available.
Some are a little short of range.
Mine does about 6 revolutions, or about 4.5 mm.

It  is because this isn't very much, that you have to be careful when you set the gauge, that not only is the gauge not levitating above the start area, but you haven't overcompensated with too much 'preset' so that you run out of gauge movement on the hump, and indeed could push the gauge out of it's extension fitting as you rotate the engine round these 4 humps looking for #1 hump again!

Lets begin.
If I assume you have a metric gauge with a total range of about 5mm and 1mm per complete  revolution of the pointer:  
With gauge loose in your hand zero the gauge with the dial, and now move the dial a few divisions off zero.
Now put the gauge into the extension, clamp briefly and ensure that the needle has full and free movement up and back and is not sticking. Slacken the extension.

On your engine find #1 TDC. Use timing mark on the flywheel and the notch on the pump pulley. Notch on the pulley should be about MiDDay.
Now with a 19mm wratchet turn the crank anti clockwise about 45 degrees.

Now insert gauge and extension.
Tighten extension to pump head, and then push gauge gently inwards until pointer has swung round once and is nearly on the zero. Get it there if you can, or at this point tighten gauge to extension and zero out the  gauge with the dial.

If you are at the bottom of the slope, then further 10 or 20 degrees anticlockwise with the crank should produce no movement of the  gauge.
If the needle moves, then you are still on the cam slope, and need to go further anticlockwise.

Assuming we are at the bottom of the slope, turn the crank clockwise until the pointer starts to climb. Pay attention to TDC on the flywheel. I put some snowpeg on the crank pulley [done previously at flywheel TDC and positioned to coincide with some ridge on the timing cover so I can observe both the gauge and the approach to TDC at the same time]

At TDC note what the needle has done.

If it was higher than the figure you were setting, then you loosen the pump and retard it by pulling the top of the pump away from the engine, if lower, then push pump other way.

When happy, tighten pump, then wrench crank round clockwise twice noting 4 humps of essentially equal pointer value, which is about 2.3mm.
[If some or all readings are noticably different then either gauge is floating, or pump cam has wear]
Stop at #1 TDC and reread gauge,.
 The setting you previously set should be there. I find it easier to set the pointer, and then check that TDC on flywheel is correctly aligned. 1 thou different is just slackness in belt etc, but if way off then there is a fault in gauge or pump

[JessaBug]

Here is the best IP timing guide we've found: http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

We have it printed out and keep it in our Bentley to use. Don't think we've followed the Bentley at all.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Here is the best IP timing guide we've found: http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

We have it printed out and keep it in our Bentley to use. Don't think we've followed the Bentley at all.

Not too impressed with all those ENDIF's .
Not sure that many fine scale gauges run to an inch travel either.  My description is shorter too, amazingly

A nice collection of basic pump timings, but some of the variation is merely VAG changing their mind

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

Mark, thanks for that long explanation. The question still remains at how far do you move the crankshaft c.c.w. to zero the pointer. On my setup, there seems to be 2 points where that can happen, one at around 2 to 3 degrees and one at around 90 degrees.

Looking at it from a different way, when the crankshaft mark and #1 piston is at TDC, the IP should be set to inject fuel 1 mm (per the dial gauge) before TDC. Is that correct?

When the IP cam plate lobe is at it's highest point, is that when the delivery valves open and fuel injected?

[theman53]

I don't think you are getting it. You are trying to find the bottom of the lift and then go forward. It sounds like you are just measuring where it is when you put it in and not readjusting. Then when you roll it back you get nothing until the next lift at 90 degrees. In between you need to find the bottom then go forward and find your 1.0mm

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

Well she's running so I must have gotten the timing at least close. I primed the IP from the return, cracked one injector nut and cranked for about 20 seconds and she fired right up! I will check the timing again after I run it a bit and retorque the head gasket. Thanks for eveyones input.