The late libbypapa thread

[fatmobile]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Sooo if you put fuel in the engine, but try to stop the wheel from turning, it will be rich?
No big surprise it gets smokey when you put it under load,.. basically grab the wheels and add fuel.

 So is that running too rich, or rich enough to overcome the resistance?
If you don't grab the wheel and add fuel, it will equallize,.. add more fuel and the RPMs will increase until it has enough air/fuel mix for the conditions.

Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 No smoke does not indicate it's the optimum condition for every load,.. or that it's running lean.

[stewardc]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 

Methinks this sounds exactly like libbyness. Are you a clone, ot the real thing in disguise???

[ORCoaster]

He is real, Check out his post in the what is my car look like in pictures.  Very nice. 

[R.O.R-2.0]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Sooo if you put fuel in the engine, but try to stop the wheel from turning, it will be rich?
No big surprise it gets smokey when you put it under load,.. basically grab the wheels and add fuel.

 So is that running too rich, or rich enough to overcome the resistance?
If you don't grab the wheel and add fuel, it will equallize,.. add more fuel and the RPMs will increase until it has enough air/fuel mix for the conditions.

Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 No smoke does not indicate it's the optimum condition for every load,.. or that it's running lean.

Lucas NEVER smokes, and his EGTs get DANGEROUSLY high.. so high he could burn holes in his pistons if he wanted..

[fatmobile]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 

Methinks this sounds exactly like libbyness. Are you a clone, ot the real thing in disguise???

 Easier to attack the person than address the issue discussed?
 Sounds like one of the vortex clones.

 When people would rather be right and insulting, instead of accurate all you can do is try to correct them, so others don't get misinformed.. then wait for the insults to spew from their fragile egos.
 I'm sure Andrew wasn't trying to help the fool, just trying to help those who aren't ignorant, from being misinformed.

[Luckypabst]

Well said, Fatmobile.

Chris

[R.O.R-2.0]

Libby just popped up on vortex!

LIBBY SIGHTING!!

[stewardc]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 

Methinks this sounds exactly like libbyness. Are you a clone, ot the real thing in disguise???

 Easier to attack the person than address the issue discussed?
 Sounds like one of the vortex clones.

 When people would rather be right and insulting, instead of accurate all you can do is try to correct them, so others don't get misinformed.. then wait for the insults to spew from their fragile egos.
 I'm sure Andrew wasn't trying to help the fool, just trying to help those who aren't ignorant, from being misinformed.

Hey, I am truly sorry if I bruised some fragile egos in this venue of diesel "experts", but you'll get the same argument that I have used on the dearly departed in the past. Extra unburned fuel in the exhaust means that the mixture, at that moment, is not ideal. Smoke is, after all, unburned fuel and unburned fuel is a rich mixture is it not   If smoke does not mean a rich mixture then what exactly does it signify ?
Sorry, but I shouldn't have attempted to inject reason in this lovefest.

[R.O.R-2.0]

Perfectly tuned = little smoke under acceleration = good mixture

Turn fuel screw 1/4 turn = smoke under acceleration = rich mixture

 

 Just because it smokes doesn't mean it's rich.
 

Methinks this sounds exactly like libbyness. Are you a clone, ot the real thing in disguise???

 Easier to attack the person than address the issue discussed?
 Sounds like one of the vortex clones.

 When people would rather be right and insulting, instead of accurate all you can do is try to correct them, so others don't get misinformed.. then wait for the insults to spew from their fragile egos.
 I'm sure Andrew wasn't trying to help the fool, just trying to help those who aren't ignorant, from being misinformed.

Hey, I am truly sorry if I bruised some fragile egos in this venue of diesel "experts", but you'll get the same argument that I have used on the dearly departed in the past. Extra unburned fuel in the exhaust means that the mixture, at that moment, is not ideal. Smoke is, after all, unburned fuel and unburned fuel is a rich mixture is it not   If smoke does not mean a rich mixture then what exactly does it signify ?
Sorry, but I shouldn't have attempted to inject reason in this lovefest.

correct.. black smoke is rich.. if your smoking black, then you are just wasting hp out the tail pipe..

[stewardc]

Finally, reason amongst a bunch of empty words !!!!

[Toby]

correct.. black smoke is rich.. if your smoking black, then you are just wasting hp out the tail pipe..

Not true. Max HP is almost always found to be a rich mixture. Its money that you are wasting "out the tail pipe".

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

correct.. black smoke is rich.. if your smoking black, then you are just wasting hp out the tail pipe..

Not true. Max HP is almost always found to be a rich mixture. Its money that you are wasting "out the tail pipe".

All a little confusing, as wasted money is wasted fuel.
Wasted fuel may be neccessary to achieve true max HP, due to design of engine.
Secret is to get near max HP, with as little waste [black smoke] as possible.
This is exactly the same issue as heat loss through double glazing, or wall insulation. with every extra layer of glass or insulation giving lesser and lesser benefit.

Anyway no one drives steady state, for more than brief moments, so due to catch up issues, VW or any engine in a car will run rich, so my point that CADman's point that more  fuel in a diesel [I assume turboed] will lead to higher revs, is true on a bench, over time but not actually applicable in most driving situations.

Where is the VW Stationary Engine forum?

Apparently black smoke can come from the middle of a fuel jet cone, where it cannot get through the flame front to the oxygen on the other side.

[mtrans]

Very educational specially with puzzle-man involved.
Q
I have IDI no turbo,is there is any oxidant which I can use with Disel fuel or any other oil.
I am not looking for power as much as GOOD combustion,so any know hemical aka peroxides or? sugestions

[stewardc]

Well spoken Dieselstink. Further explanations of the smoke we all love so much.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Further editing having actually read all of your comment...

I think there is a very basic misunderstanding of the term 'rich'.  Rich does not mean "inefficient" or "excessive emissions" or "incomplete combustion" or "black smoke".  By correct definition, "rich" is a fuel to air ratio above stoichiometric.  Stoichiometric is the exact fuel to air ratio present in the combustion chamber so that under ideal conditions the fuel will be completely oxidized without any oxygen being left over.  Unfortunately the ideal conditions never exist. As I've been saying, or trying to
So have I!

The fuel droplet size is too large and when the fuel is injected into the cylinder there is excessive fuel at the nozzle and excessive air at the extremes.
You must be referring to DI diesels, because within reason, droplet size unimportant when talking about the IDI which is the only engine type I'm talking about.

The areas of excessive fuel begin burning immediately and begin forming carbon-monoxide and carbon2.  A diesel will smoke black badly even before the fuel to air ratio in the combustion chamber reaches a stoich mixture due to poor atomization and the poor mixing of the fuel and air in the combustion chamber.  At those times of black smoke, there is still excess oxygen going out the tailpipe along with the incompletely burned carbon particulate.
Yes,  

Even at maximum fueling at maximum load, road diesels are only at 70-80% of stoich (20-30% lean).  I guess when people are misusing the term "rich" they really mean "incomplete combustion" but that is not what the word means.
I don't entirely disagree [see below], but words have many meanings so don't try and patent the word 'rich' If we were on the GTI forum, there would indeed be a conflict, but on the GTD forum everyone is "Talkin' diesel".

I guess the misconception is understandable with otto engines.  In the case of gas engines, the fuel is atomized so completely and mixed with the air in the combustion chamber so uniformly that with a stoichiometric mixture, near complete combustion occurs.
Agreed [sometimes] but see below, because I don't think I'm misconcepted at all in this case. Just to keep you on your toes, how do you factor in the different blends of petroleum, or for diesels; summer fuel, winter diesel, veggy etc which all have different calorific values and so require different amounts of oxygen, from air. Do they all have their own mini stokies? I put it to you that  they do, So it's all a little bit theoretical and general, and as for gassers you would need your mechanic to set your car to a particular brand of petroleum to maintain perfection, or do modern cars self adjust?  

The current trend toward higher pop pressures in diesels is an attempt to increase atomization and the mixing in the combustion chamber in order to get diesels nearer to the increased power, economy and lack of soot of a more completely burned stoichiometric mixture at maximum fueling.
The 200+ bar stuff is for issues with DI. Contrast with IDI's eg Mercedes actually go as low as 110bar, and I'm sure I've seen 90bar on something. IDI's actually 'naturally' burn fuel more completely than DI's due to more readily available shear. It's the heatloss through the head that lets them down. Cast iron head, lined with ceramic in the swirl/prechamber would improve that. Iron has about  4x insulative power, and ceramic many times, so a mere coating would help. Lower bars, likely as not, lead to slower burn, less max temp, less NOx, probably better economy, and the last thing  CADman  and I agreed upon.

Please bear in mind I am not nearly EVER talking about 'Racers 'R' Us', or 'My BHP is bigger than your  BHP'

Most of the latest economy figures for the DI engines are not guaranteed by the manufacturers, because they are achieved with emissions as a priority, in laboratory conditions for road tax purposes and extrapolated for mpg equivalent using CO2/km as a converter.
I know this because certain manufacturers had this as a defence in the UK media recently  for customers whose cars appeared defective, as they could not achieve economy figures quoted in the brochures... bl***y rip off IMO

Mark, if maximum fueling at maximum load is still below stoichiometric, I do not see how small changes in load can ever approach it and obviously would never exceed it and result in a rich mixture.  When you are using the term "rich" do you really mean "less efficient" or "less complete combustion"?.  As I've pointed out in this thread and in the other one where you said almost the exact same things, those terms are not synonymous and you seem to misuse the term 'rich' repeatedly on this forum.  It would be great if you used correct terms, said what you meant and meant what you said.  
For correct terms see elsewhere for my oppinion
See elsewhere for my oppinion of correct terms also

I don't see what stationary engines have to do with it.
Engines tested under noload, lab conditions was my point.

On a moment to moment basis, if the fuel and air is less than what is necessary for a given load, the engine will not meet the power output required to match the load and will slow down.  If the fuel and air exceed what's required for the load, the engine will produce more power than the load and speed up.  
I assume that you are saying [without actually saying], that this statement only applies where the excess fuel can get to the oxygen, because forming carbon does not drive engine faster.  Furthermore, there is always moment to moment 'Turbo lag' and we drive moment to moment.

Neither case results in a fuel to air ratio in the combustion chamber that exceeds stoichiometric.  That's true for stationary or automobile engines.
But you are talking about the complete combustion chamber, overall residents in an apartment block, etc, but I'm talking about pockets of unhomogeny, or overcrowded apartments.  

To address your last comment, the C2 forms in the center of droplets, not just at the center of the fuel cone.  Some particulate carbon will form even at idle.  
I never said 'just'

OK for rich read 'relatively richer' and also EDIT [include] the incomplete combustion aspect, be it from too  much fuel or not  enough to create a flame front.
Except that in an IDI diesel there are pockets of richer than stoic. This is because we are putting the fuel in so late, compared with say traditional carburation gassers that starts mixing nearly a foot outside the engine giving your homogenous  stoic mix. I seem to remember the non stoic gassers in the 1980's that appeared to the Gunson's Colortune as a pink flame rather than a blue  one.
A diesel  mixes as it burns, and burns as it mixes but doesn't always do it as efficiently as it could, but still nearly always better than a gasser.
 
I'll admit now  I'm not familiar with gasser injection systems, and how they mix the fuel, but in an IDI engine generally and this partcular design of one [in terms of combustion chamber] that was designed 80 years ago by Harry Ricardo, who was able to adjust compression ratios, swirl chamber size shape, throat size, injection angle swirl ratio , blah  blah blah, specified that droplet size [within reason did not matter, because the swirl was able to shear off the volatizing [sp] droplet surface as a flame stream.

 All that was needed was a few early small droplets to start the burn.
I believe that one of his books is online.  
He also decided that over atomisation was also possible in this design because a fine mist lacks penetration through the compressed air.

So the carbon forms in the middle of droplets.
So why, and what makes the size increase? Surely not droplet size, because at the moment my,  I assume, reasonable compression engine, is using 130 bar injection, and smoke is fairly minimal. It is certainly less than pre rering and 155bar injection Is it not simply the lack of accessable oxygen?

Any carbon lumps present certainly don't add to the combustion gasses and that is what drives the pistons, whereas should they become CO2, then they would, wouldn't they?

Gassers never ran continuously at stoic anyway, or drifted way off, which is why they needed Mr Krypton tuner, to pass govt emissions tests.
You  leave my 'rich' alone and I'll carry on conceeding the abuse of "gas", when you mean petroleum. 
What's going to happen when you get duel fuel, will you need to say "I run my car on gas and gas"?