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Not a topic about diesels, but i didnt want to waste my time on Vortex..
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 04 Jul, 2011 09:41
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ok, so does anyone have an answer as to why most MSD products say to not use them with solid core spark plug wires?
ive noticed that there are warning stickers all over my msd ignition setup warning against use of solid core wires.. well AFAIK, all the older VWs had solid core wires..
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#1
by
theman53
on 04 Jul, 2011 09:45
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because MSD ignition boxes suck.
That is the easy answer, but really I don't know. Probably has something to do with the impedence of the wire.
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#2
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 04 Jul, 2011 09:49
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lol, yea, idk.. i wanted a real reason why i cant use an MSD on a VW. i wanna see if there really is any gains to be had with the multi spark discharge ignition systems.. i do most of my driving under 3000 rpms, and thats where the MSD claims to shine..
my buddy claims to have gotten repeatable economy of 13 mpg with a 454 chevy in a K5.. he blames his mileage on a good tune, and an MSD (mostly because of the msd, he says)
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#3
by
theman53
on 04 Jul, 2011 09:59
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If you don't have an MSD box for cheap then I wouldn't buy it. The reason nascar runs 2 boxes and has them on a toggle switch isn't just because they have 2 different tunes in the boxes it is because they fail that much. Been through it circle track racing.
Jacobs and Mallory IMHO are much better boxes.
If it is just the other parts like the coil and such MSD doesn't have a problem there. I don't think we ever went through a coil. Just all those stinking 7-A boxes. Thinking more if the resistance isn't the problem solid core would knock out radio signals so maybe some of the MSD units it would interfere similarly.
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#4
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 04 Jul, 2011 10:23
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If you don't have an MSD box for cheap then I wouldn't buy it. The reason nascar runs 2 boxes and has them on a toggle switch isn't just because they have 2 different tunes in the boxes it is because they fail that much. Been through it circle track racing.
Jacobs and Mallory IMHO are much better boxes.
If it is just the other parts like the coil and such MSD doesn't have a problem there. I don't think we ever went through a coil. Just all those stinking 7-A boxes. Thinking more if the resistance isn't the problem solid core would knock out radio signals so maybe some of the MSD units it would interfere similarly.
i have a MSD 6T (circle track box)
and a MSD 6 Offroad.. and for the offroad, i have the rev box, the timing advance knob, and the ign box its self..
so i would be paying nothing for either box, just have to dig one out if i was to fit one to my GTI..
idk why it wouldnt work tho, because i would be using the stock coil, dizzy, plugs, wires, everything.. i would be triggering the MSD off the stock ICM, and taking the power from the MSD, and sending it to the stock coil..
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#5
by
maxfax
on 04 Jul, 2011 11:13
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Lucas pretty much nailed it on both counts.. EMI (electro magnetic interference), That multi spark discharge increases this.. It'll screw with radios, rev limiters, electronic voltage regulators, ecms, pcms, tcms, and even the MSD box itself.. It typically won;t cause any permanent damage, but it can be the root of all evil when it comes to odd little electronic quirks..
And, MSD ignitions suck.. I ditched the one on my Mustang in favor of a Mopar performance (orange) ignition module...
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#6
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 04 Jul, 2011 11:41
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well, if there so crappy, then why do they sell soo many of the boxes? or is it just like the CIVIC thing? people continue to buy them, even knowing that they all have the same problems?
ive never seen a MSD go tits up..
idk, i guess i will just do some trial and error.. i dont care if the MSD burns up, and i have replacements for about everything else that could burn up..
looks like the mad scientist will be doing a little experimenting in the near future..
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#7
by
maxfax
on 04 Jul, 2011 14:34
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AS far as why they sell so many, well marketed, cheap in the grand scheme of things, and readily available with lots of accessories..
When it comes to how reliable they are, I feel they rank up there with say an OEM duraspark or HEI.. Much like everything else, I feel they were once quite good, but have gotten cheaper for a reason.. Pro Comp makes a knockoff that used to be really crappy, however MSD seems to be catching up, probably made by the same factory in china now..
The number one thing I see killing these things is the wrong coil or an ailing coil.. Next up is poor mounting locations.. As with any electronic doo hickey they don;t like a lot of heat and vibration.. And just plain ole half arsed wiring.. Good grounds and a good power feed will go a long way...
I went though 3 on the Pootang, all warrantied.. A 351w in a Mustang II doesn't allow for a whole lot of cool places to mount the thing, and they just plain died Hind site, I should have just put it under the dash..
I've ran into a few others that the tach output died and or developed odd misfires/hesitations.
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#8
by
theman53
on 04 Jul, 2011 16:50
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had the off road ones that were supposed to be more rugged version of the 6A, but weren't. Still they couldn't handle the vibrations or wet. The Dr. Jacobs stuff you could mount it in a fish tank and it would still work.
In MSD's defense I haven't owned any of there stuff for a while so it might be getting better.
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#9
by
maxfax
on 04 Jul, 2011 21:54
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In MSD's defense I haven't owned any of there stuff for a while so it might be getting better.
I'm pretty sure it's not.. Put one on a customer's Torino w/ a 460 over the winter.. Perfectly fine running car ran like poo with nothing more than an ignition module swap.. Installed number 2 all was well till a month ago when the tach output died...
Ironically the used one I bought 10 years ago and installed in my golf cart still works dandy...
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#10
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 05 Jul, 2011 09:32
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yea, see, all my ignition boxes are OLD.. and both are off perfectly running rigs. the 6 Offroad came off a 460 that ran real good, the truck just got scrapped, so i grabbed the MSD, and about 400 bucks worth of autometer gauges..
maybe i will get lucky and it will be a decent box.. maybe im just wasting my time.. guess we will find out..
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#11
by
maxfax
on 06 Jul, 2011 11:57
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You might be all right then.. THinking about it, all the one's I have had trouble with were new within the last 5 years or so...
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#12
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 06 Jul, 2011 19:33
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You might be all right then.. THinking about it, all the one's I have had trouble with were new within the last 5 years or so...
i would say my 6 Offroad setup is atleast 15 years old.. the other one, closer to 25.. lol. one box i have is ANCIENT.
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#13
by
maxfax
on 08 Jul, 2011 19:01
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You'll probably be fine then.. In comparison to most everything now days, the old stuff was usually over built, or just plain better built..
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#14
by
AudiVWguy
on 12 Jul, 2011 12:21
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I've also have one of the older 6A boxes. Been on the Audi 5K TQ for a long time, at 18 lbs of boost it punches that spark in there quite well. I noticed improvement. The car felt snappier, accelerated better over the stock set up.
Do you have MSD wires? They had the lowest resistance of all I tested.
Also check into copper plugs, they transmit the largest spark out put over platinum, iridium, etc. There're just not designed to last very long over the other types. But our plugs are very easy to replace!
Cheers,
-JB