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1.9D pump install / injector line issues
by
VWCaddy
on 21 Apr, 2011 15:55
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I am in the process of swapping in a nice Giles-rebuilt 1.9D pump (from a '90's vintage Passat 1.9D eco-diesel) into my '82 pickup which has been running a 1.6D pump for the last 10 years. So Giles set me up with the right offset drive sprocket. But the issue I have run into is with the injector lines, actually 2 issues:
First the injector fittings on the 1.9D pump stick out about 40mm from the pump bod (red circle)y, about 20mm farther than the ones on the 1.6D pump, so the lines end up about 20mm in from the end of the fittings. Secondly, the top of the pump, where the TD boost aneroid would attach, hits the #1/#2 injector lines about half way in the adjustment rotation (green circle). That is it is fine from full forward to straight up, but hit just past straight up and won't allow any timing adjustment past that point.
So is there a set of 1.9D or TD injector hard lines that would fit better? If so, anyone have a VW part number or application for those? Or, it would seem one could swap the shorter fittings from the old 1.6D pump onto the 1.9D pump to resolve the first issue, but still leaves the second issue.
I do have an e-mail into Giles regarding this, but have not heard back yet. Hoping someone here may have run into this and have a work around.
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#1
by
Vincent Waldon
on 21 Apr, 2011 16:27
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it would seem one could swap the shorter fittings from the old 1.6D pump onto the 1.9D pump to resolve the first issue.
Haven't done this exact swap so I can't help you with the actual lines... but I do know that the longer delivery valves are specific to the 1.9 pump so I'm pretty sure Giles will tell you you can't move 'em between your pumps unfortunately.
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#2
by
VWCaddy
on 21 Apr, 2011 16:40
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OK, good to know that. Hopefully someone will have some input on the fuel lines.
What sorts of lines are folks running on the AAZ engines/pumps?
Suppose I can try installing ETKA again and see if I can locate the Passat injector line p/n - but it looks like my old CDR copy is bad. Will need to find a new version to download.
Also, anyone have any neat tricks for getting that bottom bolt under the pump started into the pump bracket? That was a bear to get out, just can't imagine getting it started in there with room for one finger on it.
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#3
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 22 Apr, 2011 11:21
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OK, good to know that. Hopefully someone will have some input on the fuel lines.
What sorts of lines are folks running on the AAZ engines/pumps?
Suppose I can try installing ETKA again and see if I can locate the Passat injector line p/n - but it looks like my old CDR copy is bad. Will need to find a new version to download.
Also, anyone have any neat tricks for getting that bottom bolt under the pump started into the pump bracket? That was a bear to get out, just can't imaging getting it started in there with room for one finger on it.
everyone ive seen do this swap, just mangles a set of 1.6 lines.. it looks ghetto after you do it, but atleast it will run..
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#4
by
VWCaddy
on 22 Apr, 2011 11:32
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Did get some input on using the following 1Y lines for #1/#2. Seems like #1 line is bent to run in back of #2 and #2 runs toward the center of the head directly, missing the top of the pump altogether, so that clears up the 2nd issue.
http://www.vagcat.com/epc/cat/vw/POC/1996/165/49/1948039/- 028130301B
- 028130302B
My lines look pretty well used, so not sure how much luck I'll have re-bending them. They may have already been bent when they were initially installed on the 1.9 engine about 12 years ago. If I am looking to replace them, I may just see if I can get a set of the the proper new lines.
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#5
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 22 Apr, 2011 11:42
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Did get some input on using the following 1Y lines for #1/#2. Seems like #1 line is bent to run in back of #2 and #2 runs toward the center of the head directly, missing the top of the pump altogether, so that clears up the 2nd issue.
http://www.vagcat.com/epc/cat/vw/POC/1996/165/49/1948039/
- 028130301B
- 028130302B
My lines look pretty well used, so not sure how much luck I'll have re-bending them. They may have already been bent when they were initially installed on the 1.9 engine about 12 years ago. If I am looking to replace them, I may just see if I can get a set of the the proper new lines.
they dont make factory lines to run a 1.9 pump on 1.6 injectors..
all the 1.9 lines i know about, are made for tall injectors, and long delivery valves..
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#6
by
VWCaddy
on 22 Apr, 2011 12:50
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they dont make factory lines to run a 1.9 pump on 1.6 injectors..
all the 1.9 lines i know about, are made for tall injectors, and long delivery valves..
So would there be any pros or cons to putting in a set of 1.9-specific injectors?
I know the older mechanic who installed this engine (1Y, 1.9D) back around '99 or '00 and although he was very competent, he was also quite frugal. So if any part looked like it had any sort of life left, he would re-use it. Case in point was the old clutch what was in the vehicle when he put the new engine and trans in. He said it looked to have about 30% remaining friction material thickness, so he re-used it. And sure enough, with the stronger engine, it wore out in a few years of use. So not sure what the condition or history of the injectors and hard lines he used. For all I know, they may be 30+ years old with no rebuild.
So, if I set about bending the 1.6 lines, I might just pop for a new set to start with, looks like I can pick up a set of those for $80 or so. Looks like a set of the 1.9 lines would run about twice that, assuming they fit the 1.6 injectors. Would not be averse to a new set of injectors if there is some benefit to be had.
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#7
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 22 Apr, 2011 13:08
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they dont make factory lines to run a 1.9 pump on 1.6 injectors..
all the 1.9 lines i know about, are made for tall injectors, and long delivery valves..
So would there be any pros or cons to putting in a set of 1.9-specific injectors?
I know the older mechanic who installed this engine (1Y, 1.9D) back around '99 or '00 and although he was very competent, he was also quite frugal. So if any part looked like it had any sort of life left, he would re-use it. Case in point was the old clutch what was in the vehicle when he put the new engine and trans in. He said it looked to have about 30% remaining friction material thickness, so he re-used it. And sure enough, with the stronger engine, it wore out in a few years of use. So not sure what the condition or history of the injectors and hard lines he used. For all I know, they may be 30+ years old with no rebuild.
So, if I set about bending the 1.6 lines, I might just pop for a new set to start with, looks like I can pick up a set of those for $80 or so. Looks like a set of the 1.9 lines would run about twice that, assuming they fit the 1.6 injectors. Would not be averse to a new set of injectors if there is some benefit to be had.
the 1.9 injectors are WAY TALLER than the 1.6 injectors. and the 1.9 had alot longer delivery valves.
if you want the 1.9 pump and lines to work, then use the 1.9 injectors too..
or just take the lines you have, and bend them. they shoudnt crack as long as the rubber vibration isolator clamps are on there..
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#8
by
VWCaddy
on 22 Apr, 2011 13:56
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OK, thanks for the input.
I'm also waiting talk to Giles, but that will probably be next week as they seem to be closed for the Easter holiday, have left e-mail and voice mails with them.
Just with the front of the engine wide open, now is the time to put in any new parts that make sense. I do have a new set of Bosch Duraterm glow plugs to go in along with re-wiring them individually.
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#9
by
Vincent Waldon
on 22 Apr, 2011 14:38
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The 1.6 block is not quite as tall as the 1.9 block... so even with a 1.9 pump and matching injectors there's a little bending in your future, regardless.
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#10
by
VWCaddy
on 22 Apr, 2011 15:08
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The 1.6 block is not quite as tall as the 1.9 block... so even with a 1.9 pump and matching injectors there's a little bending in your future, regardless.
Yes, that has already been done, at least I assume so. These are 1.6 lines that have been hooked up between a 1.6D pump and a 1.9D block/head for around 12 years. Just a bit worried around re-bending those already bent lines. I've had experience with having things bend fine one time, but if you try to re-bend the same part, that is where you can run into trouble with metal fatigue.
If I go that route, then I would probably pick up a new set of lines, maybe practice the bends with the old lines and if they look reasonable, keep them for spares, but use the new lines for the finished install.
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#11
by
macka
on 22 Apr, 2011 19:11
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Why not get metal fuel line with the same wall thickness and diameter and use a bender? The flares are simple, and if you copy the other fuel lines except where you need the clearances, you should be good to go. Cheaper then buying a whole new prebent set and fiddling with them.
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#12
by
VWCaddy
on 25 Apr, 2011 12:40
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Well, spoke to a few folks familiar with this setup, including Giles and all say the 1Y or AAZ injector pipes are the way to go. One person swapped in the 1.9 lines for #1 and #2 and reports they fit perfect, no bending required at all. Only issue he has with re-using #3 and #4 lines is he can't fit up the anti-vibration clamps. He also has the real 1Y injectors and reports they are exactly the same height as the 1.6D injectors, so that is not an issue either.
So have an order in for a set of all 4 1.9D pipes, but they are back ordered in North America, so it may be a few weeks to get some from Germany.
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#13
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 25 Apr, 2011 16:29
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Well, spoke to a few folks familiar with this setup, including Giles and all say the 1Y or AAZ injector pipes are the way to go. One person swapped in the 1.9 lines for #1 and #2 and reports they fit perfect, no bending required at all. Only issue he has with re-using #3 and #4 lines is he can't fit up the anti-vibration clamps. He also has the real 1Y injectors and reports they are exactly the same height as the 1.6D injectors, so that is not an issue either.
So have an order in for a set of all 4 1.9D pipes, but they are back ordered in North America, so it may be a few weeks to get some from Germany.
Remember, you are also dealing with about 1/2 " of block height/deficit for the 1.6 which I think also means 1.9 lines are a different length, and so a different injection phase at higher revs compared with 1.6 lines...
Can lines not be annealed prior to rebending?
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#14
by
VWCaddy
on 25 Apr, 2011 17:10
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Remember, you are also dealing with about 1/2 " of block height/deficit for the 1.6 which I think also means 1.9 lines are a different length, and so a different injection phase at higher revs compared with 1.6 lines...
Can lines not be annealed prior to rebending?
Correct, this is a 1.9D engine / taller block and am putting on a 1.9D pump and 1.9D injectors so all 1.9 parts in essence. And yes, the 1.9 lines are likely a little different in length than the 1.6 lines, thus the best setup is to run all the lines the same length, so all 1.6/re-bent or all 1.9 w/ stock bends.
Suppose the lines could be annealed and re-bent. I have also heard that the 1.6 lines on a 1.9 engine just barely fit, but then adding the longer 1.9 pump sort of stretches the 1 / 2 lines a bit too far, plus the interference at the top of the pump.