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#15
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Apr, 2011 10:54
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
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#16
by
jasonsansfleece
on 13 Apr, 2011 11:52
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I think the 02A is quite a bit stronger than the anemic 020. The O2J and the O2A have only minor differences.
Not wanting to thread jack, but whilst we are at it,
why is the 020 anemic and if so what is its weakest point?
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#17
by
the caveman
on 13 Apr, 2011 13:39
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2 main points are that they added the 5th speed by adding an extra chamber onto the existing transaxle housing. If the oil level gets low, that's where it empties out of first and so when you're on the highway, without any oil, it'll cook pretty quickly.
The other thing [ this doesn't affect just VW transmissions but...], because reverse doesn't have a syncro, it often engages roughly. When bits break off one of the reverse gears, they fall to the bottom of the differential part of the case, where they can get squeezed in between the ring and pinion gears, and ruin them.
I'm sure others can join in with other comments.
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#18
by
rallydiesel
on 13 Apr, 2011 14:03
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The 020 also has smaller diameter shafts than the other VW trans. Not that I have ever heard of someone snapping a gear shaft. The gears themselves are also smaller than later trans'. Most people say that the ring gear rivets are a major weak point although some of the very early 020's had very heavy rivets that are quite strong. For me, I really dislike the ass backwards flywheel/pressure plate set-up.
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#19
by
Pat Dolan
on 13 Apr, 2011 22:48
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip. Semantically, the words "limited sip" means just what it says....it will slip a limited amount. Most LSDs, including Gleason Torsens (i.e. quaiffe and peloquin for VWs) also will NOT lock up when you fly an inside wheel or have it on very low traction surface. They need some pre load
(traction from the light wheel) to bias torque to the other side, but they never achieve lockup to drive the diff gears. The angle of the helix on this type determines the bias ratio, but they never achieve lockup.
Some ramp type LSD's can deal with full unload and will nearly lock (Wavetrac), but there are no full lockers (Detroit type) for VWs I have eve seen. Drag guys can use a spool, but not dreveable on pavement with turns.
While we are on it: I would love to know what 10%, 20%, 80% is suppopsed to be. 10% of WHAT?
? A 200 lb/ft TDI delivers about 2,400 lb/ft to the drive axle in low gear, and don't even try to tell me a little spring on side can produce 2,000 lb/ft of torque when I can easily overcome it by hand (and I am not all that strong). About the only thing they are actually able to do is provide maybe enough preload for a torsen to maintain drive with a really lightly loaded inside wheel.
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#20
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 14 Apr, 2011 11:03
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip. Semantically, the words "limited sip" means just what it says....it will slip a limited amount. Most LSDs, including Gleason Torsens (i.e. quaiffe and peloquin for VWs) also will NOT lock up when you fly an inside wheel or have it on very low traction surface. They need some pre load (traction from the light wheel) to bias torque to the other side, but they never achieve lockup to drive the diff gears. The angle of the helix on this type determines the bias ratio, but they never achieve lockup.
Some ramp type LSD's can deal with full unload and will nearly lock (Wavetrac), but there are no full lockers (Detroit type) for VWs I have eve seen. Drag guys can use a spool, but not dreveable on pavement with turns.
While we are on it: I would love to know what 10%, 20%, 80% is suppopsed to be. 10% of WHAT?? A 200 lb/ft TDI delivers about 2,400 lb/ft to the drive axle in low gear, and don't even try to tell me a little spring on side can produce 2,000 lb/ft of torque when I can easily overcome it by hand (and I am not all that strong). About the only thing they are actually able to do is provide maybe enough preload for a torsen to maintain drive with a really lightly loaded inside wheel.
no, lockers go "CLUNK" when they lock up, used to have one of those in my toyota too. they click when you go around corners..
im talking about the gear type limited slip setups. i know what im talking about..
a VW has no LSD. it may have springs that act as an LSD, but there not. theres still a full set of spider gears in the differential, and thats it, nothing more, no clutches or anything like that.
a VW differential doesnt lock up harder when it senses spin.
the engineers at VW never intended for the springs and conical washers to be a LSD setup, im sure..
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#21
by
Pat Dolan
on 15 Apr, 2011 08:49
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In your own words:
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
What I was pointing out (and you seem to be missing) is that they do NOT "lock". They need a load on one wheel to bias torque to the other, but they never lock up.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
Again, NO an LSD will NOT do that....., which is why I said: "The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip."
no, lockers go "CLUNK" when they lock up, used to have one of those in my toyota too. they click when you go around corners..
There are many, many kinds of locking diffs, many of which make no noise - or don't work unless you engage them.
im talking about the gear type limited slip setups. i know what im talking about.
Then please bother to get it right - they don't lock up.
a VW has no LSD. it may have springs that act as an LSD, but there not. theres still a full set of spider gears in the differential, and thats it, nothing more, no clutches or anything like that.
I'm glad you set that straight for me. I suppose that locking diff that VW shipped in all of those T3 Syncros was really not there after all. Good to know.
a VW differential doesnt lock up harder when it senses spin.
the engineers at VW never intended for the springs and conical washers to be a LSD setup, im sure..
I think what you meant to say is that a transverse gearbox with anti-rattle springs is not an LSD.....that you have right. This is why I have such an aversion to Peloquin making such ridiculous claims for their similar 20%/80% setup.
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#22
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 15 Apr, 2011 15:16
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
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#23
by
the caveman
on 15 Apr, 2011 17:57
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"and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..'
As Pat Dolan explained, lockers are a lockable differential for 4x4's ,or like my Transporter, which had a syncro transaxle with LSD and locker ,switch on from the dash by vacuum
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#24
by
Pat Dolan
on 15 Apr, 2011 19:56
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
There are very few locking diffs EVER installed OEM (excepting of course for a few hard core offroad machines and Type 2 syncros). What you haven't caught onto is that an LSD will only send torque to one side if there is traction on the other side. It needs the feedback of that torque to drive either the clutches or the worm gears that send torque to the loaded axle. If you lift one wheel completely off of the ground, or on most if one is in snow or on ice, there is not enough feedback from the light side to cause the diff to bias at all, and the unloaded wheel will just spin freely - delivering NO torque to the wheel with traction.
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#25
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 16 Apr, 2011 12:32
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
There are very few locking diffs EVER installed OEM (excepting of course for a few hard core offroad machines and Type 2 syncros). What you haven't caught onto is that an LSD will only send torque to one side if there is traction on the other side. It needs the feedback of that torque to drive either the clutches or the worm gears that send torque to the loaded axle. If you lift one wheel completely off of the ground, or on most if one is in snow or on ice, there is not enough feedback from the light side to cause the diff to bias at all, and the unloaded wheel will just spin freely - delivering NO torque to the wheel with traction.
im aware of this.. i know it takes load on both tires. thats why i say, it scratches a little bit, like not burning out, you can just tell its not completely hooked. probably still 80% traction.. thats why the LSDs can still lock up.
i know that both tires need load for a LSD to work..
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#26
by
the caveman
on 16 Apr, 2011 13:18
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"i know that both tires need load for a locker to work.."
Wrong again. A "locker" is a differential which is usually activated by the driver in order the "lock" the 2 sides of said diff so that even when one wheel is off the ground or without traction, it will allow the other side to apply power to the wheel with traction. You are getting a LSD and locker mixed up.
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#27
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 16 Apr, 2011 20:17
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i was thinking LSD, but typed locker..
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#28
by
8v-of-fury
on 16 Apr, 2011 22:58
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i was thinking LSD, but typed locker..
LoL, yeahhhh.
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#29
by
theman53
on 16 Apr, 2011 23:06
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Lucas, what can you expect from summer tires in the snow? Lol I have an 81 FF in my car right now (2% lsd) and it spins the right tire on dirt.. Lol
They were all seasons lol
I have a dedicated snow tire now It is all good...for next year.