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MK2 from NA to TD
by
ShoulderMan
on 07 Jan, 2011 09:51
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Hello all. I have finally got around to installing a KKK14 onto my car. I have a few questions and concerns about it as well as some findings.
Over all, with only the altitude compensating IP, it feels as if I now have a larger engine. I didnt get the kick in the pants that I thought I would have gotten, but at least now I can actually pass a simi truck on the freeway, instead of thinking I could pass him, but end up getting back behind him because she just wouldn't move.
I had two half way complete stock setups, one for a t3 and the other for a k14. The t3 was for a mk2 and the k14 for a mk3. so I had to switch a few parts around and make my own oil drain hose from the two. the t3 drain hose only had the correct drain pan threads and the k14 only had the correct turbo spout threads. So, I had to chop both of them up, I cut the threaded metric end off the bottom of the k14 tube, grounded down the little bulge and welded it into a standard JIC male fitting. this way if i ever need a new hose, I can just run down to the local hydraulic hose shop and they can make me a new hose. The drain pan end was more of a pain in the but than that upper part. I ended up just using a radiator clamp to hold it in the hose. Since theres no pressure or only very little, it would have to do for now. Its near impossable to get metric hydraulic fittings here in the US. The other issue is that the drain on the pan for the turbo is right next to the rear engine mount. So, I had to grind that a little for the hose and fitting to fit. If I ever have to take the Drain pan off again, I will remove the location of the drain spout to a more convenient location and change the threads to JIC as well.
After installing the turbo it was time to go get my car emission tested. I have a 3" exhaust from the turbo to the back wheel, 2 1/2 under the back tire, and 3" back out to the rear bumper.
I failed. and as I think I already knew the problem,(some oil blow by) I went home and drained about 1/2 -1 qt of oil. so the oil line is only 1/2 way up the cross hatch to full. The lady also told me to change out my new air filter. so I figured, what the hell. So I went out and bought the largest cloth cone filter they had. and removed the stock air box. I passed the emissions the second time around, from 33.6 to 1.8 where they want to see no more than 20 nox or something. anyway, by ditching the stock air box, the car went from "Eh, I guess its faster to, WOW, where the hell did that power come from.
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#1
by
ShoulderMan
on 07 Jan, 2011 10:20
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I dont know why, but after you type too far down, the box gets a little jumpy. so I am continuing. Sorry its so long.
Does anyone know why vw would put such a small air box on their turboed cars, if a larger one would make the difference between day and night?
I also decided to block off the stock bypass valve for the intake to vent excess pressure. it didn't make a huge difference, but the car is a lot more funner to drive now.
I do not have a td block so I dont have the oil squirter's, but I did install the higher capacity oil pump and put in a set of guages, because after 2-3krpm my oil light flashes and the buzzer goes off... and doesent turn off untill you hit a good bump or cycle the key. I Also dont know what standard oil pressures should be, but in the winter mornings in Arizona, at startup im at 100psi (cold), and at operating temp (hot) im idiling at 16psi. While driveing on the freeway im at 40-60psi hot. and 60-80psi warm.
I run chevron 15/40, or rotella 15/40 and use the german oil additives. (kinda like slick 50) no water to oil cooler or oil cooler. I also have the guage at the oil filter location,(along with the oem oil pressure sender)
The other question i have is that I have little to no heat comming from my heater. Ive read and serched where I could. Both heater hoses are hot, comming in and out. i have the 180-190deg thermostat, and have cardboard covering the radiator. with out the cardboard, the car will never get past 180, I can get it to 200' with it, but the fan kicks on by then..by 185-190 actually. I still cant get anything but luke warm air which cools down soon after you turn on the heater fan.
Ive flushed the car twice, once with just the liqued flush and once with some powder flush, ran it 60 miles, with the heater, flushed, ran with water for a few days, flushed, flushed again, then filled with antifreeze and watter wetter. Ive checked to make sure the vents and cables are working corrrectally and everything is.. also.,.. in the day time, 12-4pm, it blows hot air like no tomarrow, and in the summer time it blows hotter than the turbo... but it will still blow cooler air if i turn the vent from hot to cold. Any one have any ideas?
Thanks,
-Ron
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#2
by
Vincent Waldon
on 07 Jan, 2011 10:29
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Both heater hoses are hot, comming in and out.
If you've got good coolant circulation thru the core then the top two suspects are the blend door and the core itself... at about 99.9% probability that the foam has come off the blend door. ;-)
Search here and, even better, on the MK2 Vortex forum for "blend door" and you'll find tons of discussion, pictures, various ways people have repaired this common problem, etc.
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#3
by
Wayland
on 07 Jan, 2011 21:08
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You need to add an EGT gauge asap. It's just too easy to get into the danger zone with a NA-TD.
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#4
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 08 Jan, 2011 09:22
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You need to add an EGT gauge asap. It's just too easy to get into the danger zone with a NA-TD.
yes it is, ASK ME HOW I FRIGGEN KNOW!!!!!!!!
get an EGT gauge if you have a n/a block with no piston coolers!!!
most important mod you can do to your diesel..
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#5
by
ShoulderMan
on 12 Jan, 2011 07:46
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Thank you very much for the information about the Heater (blend door) information. I never would have found what I was looking for if it wasent for that. that might be a nice sticky for when someone else goes looking for "no heat from the heater", and they should be looking for the "Blend Door" thread.
I am working on an extra exhaust, doing a mild port and polish, then I will get it plained for a flat finish. I will add the egt to that one.
untill then, im running the stock boost setting on the turbo, but have not increased the fuel. Im running 3" exhaust, and a large cone filter. also temps dont go much above 70 for the next 2 months. I dont rev it above 3K, and use it for the fuel mileage. I could hit 55mpg before the turbo, so I am hoping for more with it, while driving the same (kinda like grandma) I just wanted the turbo for the xtra mileage and to go over the hill, or pass a slower than me truck.
If this is still too risky, (untill I get a pyro guage) should I re connect the blow by valve from the intake? I think that will limit my boost to about 10psi (or what ever the spring rate has fallen to) vs 15psi from the turbo its self.
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#6
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 12 Jan, 2011 12:24
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Thank you very much for the information about the Heater (blend door) information. I never would have found what I was looking for if it wasent for that. that might be a nice sticky for when someone else goes looking for "no heat from the heater", and they should be looking for the "Blend Door" thread.
I am working on an extra exhaust, doing a mild port and polish, then I will get it plained for a flat finish. I will add the egt to that one.
untill then, im running the stock boost setting on the turbo, but have not increased the fuel. Im running 3" exhaust, and a large cone filter. also temps dont go much above 70 for the next 2 months. I dont rev it above 3K, and use it for the fuel mileage. I could hit 55mpg before the turbo, so I am hoping for more with it, while driving the same (kinda like grandma) I just wanted the turbo for the xtra mileage and to go over the hill, or pass a slower than me truck.
If this is still too risky, (untill I get a pyro guage) should I re connect the blow by valve from the intake? I think that will limit my boost to about 10psi (or what ever the spring rate has fallen to) vs 15psi from the turbo its self.
first off, a turbo does NOT add mileage.. its back pressure. you dont gain mileage from it, you can just burn the diesel more efficiently. (more power from the same amount of fuel) 55 mpg is spectacular. you will never see it ever again now tho, not with boost.
i tried convincing myself that they got better mileage turbo charged, but they get about 5 mpg more with no turbo.
if you dont rev it above 3 grand, you barely see any boost..
and what are you talking about with this "blow by valve"? the little round thing on top of the valve cover that routes the PCV gasses into the turbo intake?
or are you talking about blocking off the over boost protector valve on the intake manifold?
most of us delete that stupid over boost protector, because 15 psi is all you will ever make with one of those in place.
or are you talking about the waste gate?
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#7
by
ShoulderMan
on 13 Jan, 2011 09:31
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Well thats unfortunate, I figured Id pick up another 5mpg because of the more complete burn, and because I have not turned up the fuel, I would not burn any extra, but beable to use less fuel by burning all the fuel in the cylinder, allowing for more btu output per the same injection, which would give more power per stroke, and waste less unburnt fuel than a non turboed car. (I understand that if the NA smoked, and you added the turbo, the turbo would clean up the smoke, giving you a minor boost in hp. but if you dont increase the fuel output, how can you burn more fuel? unless you used to drive at 65, and now you drive at 85, I dont see where you would burn more fuel. ...(I also do not have a tubo injection pump installed.)
Now, I may be wrong, but why do they make black boxes that give the big diesels(dodge ford chevy) better fuel milage and more power?
As far as boost, I can here it, and feel it well before 3K. It starts spooling at 1200rpm, and I notice a large pick up in accelateration from 2-3 upshift at around 2200-3200rpm. I figure I get full boost by 3200rpm, (As I here the air just blowing from the turbo pop off valve, or blow off valve)
I have a k14, I dont think it makes too much boost past 3K, I think thats the t3 that doesent start to spool untill 2500-3000rpm.
The other pop off valve or blow by valve or over boost protector that im talking about is the one on the intake manifold. it routes back into the intake tube.
the PCV hose I had just went to Atmosphere. There wasent a second port on the intake tube that I could plug it into. as of right now, I have the over boost protection plugged off and the pcv is now going to where the over boost air used to go.
I still need a boost guage to get an accurate boost reading, but I dont think its much more than 15psi. and i beleave anything more than 20psi becomes inefficient for the k14. just blowing hotter air.
as of now, I have logged 600 miles on the setup, and so far everything is running great. my first tank of fuel only lasted me 500 miles, but I also took it through emmissions, and tweeked the system here and there, and ran it hard a few times with some short bursts up to a max of 4K rpm to see what she would do, and mostly drove it 75-85mph on the freeway (I have to drive 55mph to get 55mpg) So i am hopeing to get 55mpg @65mph. Ill find out in about 2 weeks from now, what kind of milage ill get with the turbo. and will post. but it will take a few tanks to get a more accurate account of weather or not im saving or spending.
In the end, I hope im right and your wrong, as Im using the car for the mpg. The M3 is for going fast.
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#8
by
8v-of-fury
on 13 Jan, 2011 09:50
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first off, a turbo does NOT add mileage.. its back pressure. you dont gain mileage from it, you can just burn the diesel more efficiently. (more power from the same amount of fuel) 55 mpg is spectacular. you will never see it ever again now tho, not with boost.
i tried convincing myself that they got better mileage turbo charged, but they get about 5 mpg more with no turbo.
if you dont rev it above 3 grand, you barely see any boost..
k3vo, I don't think it is accurate to say you will most certainly not see the same if not better mileage by adding a turbo. I think generally the reason why people do not usually see gains on turbo cars is because they have them tuned for power, and not so much mileage. OP you have obviously noticed the power increase.. that is what is gonna rob your fuel mileage, your own right foot. Burning the fuel more efficiently means you get more power out of each molecule right? So you can do what you could before with less pedal, therefore less fuel needed, therefore less fuel used, therefore higher mileage per gallon
Well thats unfortunate, I figured Id pick up another 5mpg because of the more complete burn, and because I have not turned up the fuel, I would not burn any extra, but beable to use less fuel by burning all the fuel in the cylinder, allowing for more btu output per the same injection, which would give more power per stroke, and waste less unburnt fuel than a non turboed car. (I understand that if the NA smoked, and you added the turbo, the turbo would clean up the smoke, giving you a minor boost in hp. but if you dont increase the fuel output, how can you burn more fuel? unless you used to drive at 65, and now you drive at 85, I dont see where you would burn more fuel. ...(I also do not have a tubo injection pump installed.)
Correcto.
Now, I may be wrong, but why do they make black boxes that give the big diesels(dodge ford chevy) better fuel milage and more power?
As far as boost, I can here it, and feel it well before 3K. It starts spooling at 1200rpm, and I notice a large pick up in accelateration from 2-3 upshift at around 2200-3200rpm. I figure I get full boost by 3200rpm, (As I here the air just blowing from the turbo pop off valve, or blow off valve)
I have a k14, I dont think it makes too much boost past 3K, I think thats the t3 that doesent start to spool untill 2500-3000rpm.
I still need a boost guage to get an accurate boost reading, but I dont think its much more than 15psi. and i beleave anything more than 20psi becomes inefficient for the k14. just blowing hotter air.
Yes, the k14's spool low and are best kept in there efficiency range to a max of 15-18psi. Anymore and you are being counterproductive on such a small turbo, and are compressing now HOT air.
as of now, I have logged 600 miles on the setup, and so far everything is running great. my first tank of fuel only lasted me 500 miles, but I also took it through emmissions, and tweeked the system here and there, and ran it hard a few times with some short bursts up to a max of 4K rpm to see what she would do, and mostly drove it 75-85mph on the freeway (I have to drive 55mph to get 55mpg) So i am hopeing to get 55mpg @65mph. Ill find out in about 2 weeks from now, what kind of milage ill get with the turbo. and will post. but it will take a few tanks to get a more accurate account of weather or not im saving or spending.
In the end, I hope im right and your wrong, as Im using the car for the mpg. The M3 is for going fast.
If you maintain your driving techniques for mileage alone, I personally think you will see an increase in mileage. Everything theory you have said in your post IMHO has been spot on
Congrats on the successful swap bro.
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#9
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Jan, 2011 09:53
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Well thats unfortunate, I figured Id pick up another 5mpg because of the more complete burn, and because I have not turned up the fuel, I would not burn any extra, but beable to use less fuel by burning all the fuel in the cylinder, allowing for more btu output per the same injection, which would give more power per stroke, and waste less unburnt fuel than a non turboed car. (I understand that if the NA smoked, and you added the turbo, the turbo would clean up the smoke, giving you a minor boost in hp. but if you dont increase the fuel output, how can you burn more fuel? unless you used to drive at 65, and now you drive at 85, I dont see where you would burn more fuel. ...(I also do not have a tubo injection pump installed.)
Now, I may be wrong, but why do they make black boxes that give the big diesels(dodge ford chevy) better fuel milage and more power?
As far as boost, I can here it, and feel it well before 3K. It starts spooling at 1200rpm, and I notice a large pick up in accelateration from 2-3 upshift at around 2200-3200rpm. I figure I get full boost by 3200rpm, (As I here the air just blowing from the turbo pop off valve, or blow off valve)
I have a k14, I dont think it makes too much boost past 3K, I think thats the t3 that doesent start to spool untill 2500-3000rpm.
The other pop off valve or blow by valve or over boost protector that im talking about is the one on the intake manifold. it routes back into the intake tube.
the PCV hose I had just went to Atmosphere. There wasent a second port on the intake tube that I could plug it into. as of right now, I have the over boost protection plugged off and the pcv is now going to where the over boost air used to go.
I still need a boost guage to get an accurate boost reading, but I dont think its much more than 15psi. and i beleave anything more than 20psi becomes inefficient for the k14. just blowing hotter air.
as of now, I have logged 600 miles on the setup, and so far everything is running great. my first tank of fuel only lasted me 500 miles, but I also took it through emmissions, and tweeked the system here and there, and ran it hard a few times with some short bursts up to a max of 4K rpm to see what she would do, and mostly drove it 75-85mph on the freeway (I have to drive 55mph to get 55mpg) So i am hopeing to get 55mpg @65mph. Ill find out in about 2 weeks from now, what kind of milage ill get with the turbo. and will post. but it will take a few tanks to get a more accurate account of weather or not im saving or spending.
In the end, I hope im right and your wrong, as Im using the car for the mpg. The M3 is for going fast.
about the black box: the fords chevys and dodges, along with VW TDI engines, are all electronically controlled. the injection cycles, pump timing, everything..
so yea, a new tune does help those engines.
our VWs are IDI engines, and completely mechanical controlled..
K14 turbos make boost from like 1800 to the top of the red line. they only make about 15 or 20 psi maxed out, but still make way plenty.
if you hear the turbo making enough bost that it operates the overboost protector, then your really not gonna get good mileage like you thought.. how do you hear the air going thru a valve?
there is atleast 1 psi of drive pressure for every 1 psi boost that is built.
so when you are boosted up, your engine has back pressure, theres no way to get away from it.
its very hard to understand what you are trying to get at, because you dont really know what specific parts your actually talking about..
the overboost protector (most people call it a BOV) is located on the intake manifold. passenger side.
the wastegate is located on the turbo its self, back by the fire wall..
and sorry, but there is no way you are going to gain MPG from adding a RESTRICTION to the exhaust system..
someone will chime in. i thought i got better MPG with boost too, but its basically physically impossible, unless you do tons of pump mods..
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#10
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Jan, 2011 09:55
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ask tyler, or vince, or andrew or any of the Gurus... they will tell you the same thing..
n/a engines get better economy..
ive been told this a thousand times..
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#11
by
ShoulderMan
on 13 Jan, 2011 10:11
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ask tyler, or vince, or andrew or any of the Gurus... they will tell you the same thing..
n/a engines get better economy..
ive been told this a thousand times..
Well, I hope I can prove this thery wrong, as i respectfully dissagree with it.
To counter my back pressure i have deleated the toliet bowl exhaust for a full 3" line, which should increase spool time, decrease backpressure and keep the system running smoother.
I have a few camera picts that i will post. and also have a question on one of them.
I have also compleated the "pimp my glo-plug" proceadure, and have to say, makes it start like a new car in the arizona winter months.
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#12
by
ShoulderMan
on 13 Jan, 2011 10:15
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The other question I has is that I'm using this altitude compensating pump, but what is the little device that hooks into the fuel line. It has a place for a wire. and its not on any of my other pumps, na or td. this pump came off a german jetta 1991 na.
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#13
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Jan, 2011 10:20
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what flows better?
a n/a manifold with nothing hooked up to it?
or a turbo with nothing hooked to it?
thats right, the n/a mani flows better.
look, im sorry, i couldnt wrap my head around it either, but everyone who knows there stuff, has told me that mpgs decrease with boost. period.
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#14
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Jan, 2011 10:21
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and, only 2 things spool the turbo:
fuel, and air..
to get mpgs.. your boost gauge should never move. then your getting great mpg with your turbo motor..
were you boosted when you were getting 55 mpg?