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Where to set the timing on my almost AAZ with 1.6L Injection Pump
by
orbitald
on 19 Nov, 2010 12:07
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Long story short but the engine I thought was an 1.9 AAZ turns out to be an industrial engine code ADE with an industrial injection pump (engine code was ground off when I bought it). I just swapped out the imdustrial injection pump for a 068 pump off a Canadian Jetta/Golf 1.6. The pump is super clean with the wire still on the fuel screw and all the yellow dots on the adjustment points. The only mod I have made so far is to turn the boost pin around 180 deg. Also, along the way I installed Mercedes nozzles on my single stage injectors (not 2 stage AAZ injectors).
I noted that timing for an AAZ is .80 and for a 1.6TD is 1.00.
I currently have it timed it at .80.
Any recommendations on where I should set the timing for my almost AAZ (1.9TD ADE) with the Merc nozzles?
I'll fool with the fuel screw after I get this set where I want it.
Thanks
David R.
Oakland, CA
'87 Vanagon Syncro Westfakia: 1.9TD ADE, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler with 800cfm fan, EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing
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#1
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 19 Nov, 2010 17:27
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The lower pump timing is because the pump has a bigger piston diameter, which going down the same bore fuel lines as a 1.6 pressurises faster than a 1.6 pump.
You are using a 1.6 pump so use 1mm timing, Setting the injector nozzles to 155 bar should be about right. What number are Merc nozzles?
I don't think it makes much difference what nozzles you use.
Below are two pintles; one is from a twin spring AAZ and the other isn't. Both are from nice genuine French injectors...
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#2
by
orbitald
on 22 Nov, 2010 18:40
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Thanks!
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#3
by
orbitald
on 07 Feb, 2011 22:16
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Hi All,
I've set my timing to 1.0 and it seems to run pretty well now. Except the idle keeps changing. I originally set the idle to 900rpm but after it warms up it may change down to 675 or up a little as well. I cant figure out what the problem is as the throttle cable seems pretty smooth and the choke cable seems to keep its setting.
Any ideas on what would cause an erratic idle on a 068 pump on my AAZ(-ish).
Also, I'm trying to use a Kent Moore j 33300-A Tach-n-time dynamic diesel tuner to check my timing. Does anybody know if there is an offset for an AAZ. Or what reading I should be looking for? I'm guessing a dynamic timing would read in degrees which is different than the static timing of 1.0mm.
Thanks again!
David R.
Oakland CA
'87 Vanagon Syncro Westfakia: 1.9TD ADE, 068 Injection Pump off CA Jetta, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing
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#4
by
Powered by Spearco
on 07 Feb, 2011 22:34
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Make sure that all you mounting bolts to the pump and to the block are tight. It could be that they are loose and is giving you the eratic idleing issue.
I to own the Kent Moore Tac-n-Time tool. Can you check what the dynamic timing is on another vehicle is as a baseline. Or convert the dynamic timing to degrees?
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#5
by
orbitald
on 07 Feb, 2011 22:43
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Thanks for the suggestion.
I just reset the timing two days ago and everything was tight. And its still having the idle problem. Its an older pump so I'm a little worried that there may be something going on internally.
I'm not quite sure how to convert the static to dynamic but I'll look around.
D
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#6
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 08 Feb, 2011 13:52
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Thanks for the suggestion.
I just reset the timing two days ago and everything was tight. And its still having the idle problem. Its an older pump so I'm a little worried that there may be something going on internally.
I'm not quite sure how to convert the static to dynamic but I'll look around.
D
For a 4 cylinder engine,
and if the flywheel on a Golf type is the same circumference as a Quantum flywheel;
then for a 1.6 pump,
and at the operating region of 1mm,
each 5 thou on a dial gauge corresponds to 2.73 crank degrees,
or 1 flywheel tooth. Dynamic strobe advance wil be somewhere between 12 to 20 crank degrees or other! It depends on injector's bars and pump's advance at the particular rpm you are measuring at.
All in all as unique a fingerprint for each individual engine setup.... 
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#7
by
orbitald
on 08 Feb, 2011 15:45
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Well that's interesting. I set my static timing at 1.00mm the best I could (double checked it) and the dynamic meter read 10deg. So maybe its close to 10deg/1.00mm for my setup. And would you think that it's a linear relationship; .8mm = 8deg?
I have a stock Vanagon diesel flywheel. I wonder how my injection pump which came off a Canadian Jetta 1.6TD (see below) compares to the pump on the stock Vanagon 1.6. If they have a similar plunger stroke than perhaps I could just find the dynamic timing for a stock diesel Vanagon and use that.
Another question; the stock timing for the Vanagon 1.6 is .86 +/-.02 while the 1.9 AAZ Golf was set at .80 +/-.02. I'm not sure what the Canadian 1.6 TD was set at. Why would people recommend setting my timing at 1.00mm? Although it seems to be running well one mechanic said stick with the timing that was on the original engine to the injection pump I am using.
The injection pump I have is 1.6 TD pump: VW 068130081F / Bosch VE 0460494182:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbitald/5146400113/http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbitald/5147002086/And my van:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orbitald/5147056624/Thanks again,
David
Oakland, CA
'87 Vanagon Syncro Westfakia: 1.9TD ADE, 068 Injection Pump off CA Jetta, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing
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#8
by
clarkrep
on 08 Feb, 2011 21:55
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Hi,
I too use a tach-n-time with the pulse adaptor on the #1 injector line. Normally i use it when I do internal pump pressure tweaks because the pump is worn/old( along with a pressure gauge of course) to ensure that I'm not advancing the dynamic timing too much. Hope this helps more than confuses.....
I've tuned four different 1.6s one NA an three tds with it.
I found them all to be around 4-7* @1,000 rpm before adjustment. I shoot for about 10* and like the results. Any more and it makes too much rattle for my liking and so far I've been able to get a couple more mpg after along with a cleaner burn(you can actually smell a more "burnt" smell out the tailpipe.
Also, if you do ever bump the internal pressure up to the specification(forget right now what it is) I recommend backing the static timing off to bring dynamic @1,000 to 10*.
I have plotted the dynamic timing with each one up to about 3,500 rpm( where it no longer continues to advance) and have been meaning to make a post with my results but didn't think anyone else would find it useful...
Now that I see some others with a tach-n-time this could be the motivation I need to get it posted(:
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#9
by
Powered by Spearco
on 08 Feb, 2011 22:04
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Please do. Its great to have that kind of info with various different types of pump timing.
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#10
by
orbitald
on 08 Feb, 2011 23:21
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Well cool! That makes me feel good about my 10*.
Question: Do you make adjustments while the engine is running? My mechanic friend said you must set the timing using the static method and just us the tach-n-time to confirm the results after everything is tightened back up. Maybe that's a stupid question but it seems possible to loosen the front facing pump bolts and just keep the rear one tight enough to make slight changes to the pump position while it is running.
Thanks!
David R.
Oakland, CA
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#11
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 09 Feb, 2011 05:04
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Well cool! That makes me feel good about my 10*.
Question: Do you make adjustments while the engine is running? My mechanic friend said you must set the timing using the static method and just us the tach-n-time to confirm the results after everything is tightened back up. Maybe that's a stupid question but it seems possible to loosen the front facing pump bolts and just keep the rear one tight enough to make slight changes to the pump position while it is running.
Thanks!
David R.
Oakland, CA
Yes loosen all bolts and nip back up a little, the underneath one.
Every so often with engine off [and at end of experiment] slacken off all eight fuel line nuts and then retighten them to take the strain out of the lines, and make adjustment easier on you next move.
Remember; the 5 thou per flywheel tooth only applies whilst the pump is thrusting on the linear part of it's [1.6D/TD] injection cam.
I have a plot written down somewhere.
You have to keep in mind, that although these engines should operate under near identical settings, invariably, they do not.
Also static timing, and even dynamic timing, is individual for your engine and is in truth mainly a means of getting your engine back to where it was before some kind of dissasembly.
It is not 'tuning' which in a nutshell is tweeking, listening, operating, re-tweeking smiling [crying] then recording using the above timing methods....
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#12
by
orbitald
on 11 Feb, 2011 12:35
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Do you ever discover the solution to a problem that is so seemingly stupid that you hesitate posting a follow-up.
Last night my idle problem came to a head. We were driving back on the highway from a party downtown and about 1/8 of a mile from our exit the throttle pretty much stopped working. We were lucky enough to coast off the highway on our exit, down the ramp, cruised through the green light at the intersection and right into the only parking space open on the block. Sometimes grace so overcomes a potentially bad experience that is impossible to get mad.
The weird thing was that the cable was not broken and it seemed that both the throttle and choke cables had no influence on the rpms which were struggling at around 650rpms. I thought it might be my fuel filter in the process of clogging and went back this morning to take a look. I found that the nut on top of the throttle lever was loose. Once tightened it up everything seems back to normal once again.
Thanks again,
David R.
Oakland CA
