newbie

[hooper]

hi all newbie from uk here. ive recently joined the derv crew after converting my 87 golf GL from 1.8 carb to a 1.6 TD that had been stood for about 7 years. engine seems ok after some teething problems(burst oil cooler and leaking core plugs in back of block) but does sound a bit noisy but could just be the way they are i dunno. any way now im pretty sure he engine is half decent im gonna start looking at some mild tuning.gonna do the guvernor mod,lda mod and fit a FMIC once ive got all the paperwork with the insurance sorted) but ive just found a GTD engine for sale at a reasonable price and just wondered wether its worth buying for the turbo,pump and injectors or will the standard Td bits be ok for mild tuning? also ive got my hands on a diesel timing light(pulse adapter) so wondered if anyone had a decent figure for pump timing.

the car itself has a bit of history..it was an ex vw demo car and was fitted out to quite a high spec for a uk car with only electric windows and aircon(not that you need it here) missing from the option list for the GL. the car has a very comprehensive service history and is in reasonable condition but unfortunatley it got written off for some panel damage in 2006 but its been repaired ok and apart from some dents and touch ups is a solid car. it was an auto when i bought it but that had to go and i dropped a manual in from a 91 gti to perk it up and get a bit more mpg but then i dropped on the TD car and i couldnt resist swapping the engine. its very good on fuel now .



hoops.

[Syncroincity]

Pictures, or it doesn't exist. Welcome to the board!

[hooper]

okey dokey will get some pics up soon  *(rushes out to find a TD mk2 golf) 

anyway had a play with a few things yesterday but didnt get chance to run it. wound the boost up a touch. spun the boost pin round and wound the tension off the spring a bit in the top of the pump. gave it a small tweak on the fuel screw and played with the pump timing. also blanked off the BOV. went out to it this morning and it started like a pig and wouldnt run right without the cold start pulled until it warmed up. gave it a run and it bloody flew but it billowed black smoke out. anyway ive advanced the timing a touch so will see how well it starts from cold 2moro and ive just backed the fuel off a tad and it seems to be a happy compromise now between power and smoke. timing is set at about 14-14.5 degrees with the timing light on the flywheel mark and it seems to run cleanest at that at tickover.

[hooper]

been hunting for a while and ive found a timing setting for my sun timing light. 16 degree +/- 1 so have set it at that and all is good. have also been offered a 1.9 na(unsure of engine code) out of a seat ibiza and just wondered wether any of it would worth having to use on my 16td.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

been hunting for a while and ive found a timing setting for my sun timing light. 16 degree +/- 1 so have set it at that and all is good. have also been offered a 1.9 na(unsure of engine code) out of a seat ibiza and just wondered wether any of it would worth having to use on my 16td.

I wonder if that timing light was on Ebay recently ;o).
The trouble with dynamic timing, is that it is a result of injector break pressure and static gauge timing combinations, when it comes to comparing with someone elses results.
Do you happen to know what your injectors are set to, or what your static timing is?

[hooper]

no idea about the injectors..just ripped the mill out of the car that had been stood for 7 years and dropped it in the golf. runs fine but does have a slightly harsh diesel knock so could be some injector issues but nothing worth throwing money at the moment. not tooled up to check the static timing but before the car was parked up it had the head rebuilt (after a belt snap) at a specialist engine centre with a rather hefty bill. i have seen the invoice for this so its kosher. before i touched anything on the engine i made some reference marks so i could undone anything i did. ive tried various settings with dynamic timing and although it seemd to run cleanest at tickover at about 14-14.5 degrees it didnt start as well as it did. give the advance lever a tweak and it started much better. ive now advanced the timing to 16 degrees and it starts better and seems to run just as clean as before and im pretty much back to my reference point so maybe the static timing was set correctly?. one thing that does seem at bid odd to me is how the diesel knock seems to be largely unaffected by the timing adjustments(injector issue?). not had any dealings with these engines in the past. much more in tune with modern diesels and older landrover diesels which seem to be much more sensitive to pump adjustments. as it is at the moment it seems fine,starts ok even with the recenct temp drops and runs clean when warm (bit of smoke on start up but nothing of concern) and power is ok even though ive turned down the full time fuel and on boost fuel. tbh until i meet some one running a similar set up im not going to know wether my engine sounds/is set up anything like what it should be. the one thing i learnt working on landrovers (petrol and diesel) is that factory settings are only good for factory fresh engines and should only be used as a base setting on older worn engines and each one should be set on its own merits to compensate for wear and tear on components. so while mine is running clean,cool and (relatively!) quiet i will leave it be until i feel the need to tinker again 

warm starts can be a bit pants though 



timing light works great by the way!

[Vincent Waldon]

The trouble with dynamic timing, is that it is a result of injector break pressure and static gauge timing combinations,

In my mind that's also its huge advantage... it is the sum total of *everything* that impacts timing, and represents the purest, most reproducible, most comparable view of when fuel is actually being injected into any particular engine.     

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

The trouble with dynamic timing, is that it is a result of injector break pressure and static gauge timing combinations,

In my mind that's also its huge advantage... it is the sum total of *everything* that impacts timing, and represents the purest, most reproducible, most comparable view of when fuel is actually being injected into any particular engine.     

I agree, but my point I'm getting at, which Newbie referred to, is that his, or your setting, is of no value to anyone else, to set their engine to. It's just a starting point for anyone elses engine, a bit like the dial gauge settings.

What would be interesting, is a whole cluster of results of apparent sweet settings, with injector pressure settings , and static readings too. Maybe throw in the dynamic pump pressures. Then graph the whole lot...

[Vincent Waldon]

And again...  that's my point... you don't need to know pressures, dial indicator settings, dynamic curves etc... it's all taken into account with a single timing value that you absolutely *can* compare from engine to engine.  16 degrees as a "sweet spot" should be the sweet spot for any similar engine, since it's the total of all the various engine variances. In fact, it's things like the dial indicator settings that *don't* compare well from engine to engine.. due to pump wear etc.

All of this is just my opinion, of course, and ignores the fact that there's some evidence that different timing lights and sensors have different response curves. 

[hooper]

i bought the timing light as i had no other way of setting the timing other than by ear(which is what im used to with landrover engines). i started of by setting my timing to a figure i had seen stated on here of about 11.5-12 degrees. at this setting the engine ran awful and so i started to work my way to a smooth running engine and ended up at 14-14.5.at this point the engine was obviously nice and warm and ran and started well. however it soon became apparent on cold starts that the timing was still retarded and someone else also pointed the different delay times when using dynamic timing. once i found the quoted figures for a sun timing light i set it to this and so far this is the best setting ive had...runs fine and starts well. im not saying 16 degrees is the "sweet spot" as ive not tried tweaking it either way yet but then again i dont feel the need to as its as good as ive had it(which happens to be near as damn it the same as it was when i got the engine). as far as im concerned timing and tuning data is only worthwhile as a reference point to start from and unless youve got brand new everything compensations need to made. i suppose if you had a number of similar engines at hand to work you could come up with a more definitive sweet spot for dynamic timing with a particular timing light. until that happens and/or everyone is using the same equipment and set up techniques then all you can do is run a setup that you are happy with until you or someone else finds you a better one.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

And again...  that's my point... you don't need to know pressures, dial indicator settings, dynamic curves etc... it's all taken into account with a single timing value that you absolutely *can* compare from engine to engine.  16 degrees as a "sweet spot" should be the sweet spot for any similar engine, since it's the total of all the various engine variances. In fact, it's things like the dial indicator settings that *don't* compare well from engine to engine.. due to pump wear etc.

All of this is just my opinion, of course, and ignores the fact that there's some evidence that different timing lights and sensors have different response curves.  

Again a mixed bag of truths there I think. At first I thought that increasing injector pressure would simply delay injection, so that advancing would naturally get us  back to the sweet spot. You only need to read what little info Andrew has released on his timing values to know that he believes it was 12ish.

If you look back at the dynamic timing thread, I posed a question of how the measurement was taken and what position the clamp was located. It was of course ignored, perhaps with the assumption that it was a wind up question.

Recently I see it was Baxter or was it Cheeseman who said there seems to be differences in calibration... My Sun tool is actually calibrated to measure output at the pump, with a conversion graph for injector output. It is an early model from the early 1980's 'DIT 8500'.

I may have tried to buy Hooper's one if he bought it recently from Ebay, as it is a simplified later model, if I'm correct, [Sun DIT9000, or  9100], because I was going to use it as a comparison tool.

As usual I digress; as well as calibration differences, I believe that the sweet spot will still vary because of the different burn rates for the different atomisation settings.

My value seems to be around 18.5 degrees. With a dial gauge setting of 0.5mm
My injectors are set to 125bar, with one at 130bar on a Quantum TD. Since re ring, economy is better than VW book/EPA.

Whilst I'm looking for maximum economy rather than maximum power, I believe they go hand in hand to the extent at least that the most efficient burn should give a better power output per volume of fuel...

Hooper, may I ask where you got your readings for a Sun strobe?
Thanks,
Mark

[hooper]

i did buy it off ebay and i think it is the DIT9100. i got my timing settings from autodata and took the reading from #1 injector pipe as close as poss to the injector. i could take a reading off the same line but at the pump end to see if they brings my timing figures into line with yours.

[regcheeseman]

warm starts can be a bit pants though

blue/white wire to temperature sender on front of head....

disconnect it.

this'll give you glow plugs everytime, you can cut the cycle short by turning the key to start. I normally only give it 1-2 secs on a warm motor

I do this to every TD I have, of course there are those that believe they'd rather sit crank crank cranking with the starter instead. 

I've just built my own custom loom and I didn't even bother putting this wire in.

[hooper]

warm starts can be a bit pants though

blue/white wire to temperature sender on front of head....

disconnect it.

this'll give you glow plugs everytime, you can cut the cycle short by turning the key to start. I normally only give it 1-2 secs on a warm motor

I do this to every TD I have, of course there are those that believe they'd rather sit crank crank cranking with the starter instead. 

I've just built my own custom loom and I didn't even bother putting this wire in.

lol was gonna do this this morning but was late for work so didnt bother!

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

i did buy it off ebay and i think it is the DIT9100. i got my timing settings from autodata and took the reading from #1 injector pipe as close as poss to the injector. i could take a reading off the same line but at the pump end to see if they brings my timing figures into line with yours.

That's kind of you. My light starts at 20 deg before TDC, and you then dial in towards TDC. It also had an input for a TDC probe that counts the timing lugs on the flywheel, which alas I don't have. Amazingly it also has inputs and outputs which are listed as 'not yet' in use
Did autodata give a figure for VW engines other than dial gauges?

Mark