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#15 by doonboggle on 20 Aug, 2010 12:13
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Due to lack of brake dust, i think you are good on that front side.
[/b][/color]
Maybe check the other front side too.
See attached... right front (passenger) views.
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#16 by Baron VonZeppelin on 20 Aug, 2010 12:52
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The test you did for hot/warm wheels is a good test.
Fronts will always be a bit hotter.
But really hot, is not what you want to have.
Both fronts look good. No significant brake dust accumulation.
Pads have good meat left.
Passenger rotor appears to have an area of non-contact, but that might be photo illusion. I wouldn't worry too much about it even if so, so long as brake pedal doesn't vibrate when applying brakes.
It could just have been a temporary sporadic issue from sitting.
I would recommend a thorough flush and bleeding of all the brakes.
I use a length of hose on the bleeders to keep from making such a mess all over my stuff.
What you might find is that a lotta rusty'ish fluid comes out of the calipers for a while. After more driving and more flushing/bleeding they will clear out pretty good - if so.
Also in that case, rebuilt calipers would be top dog choice of attack. But some of us get tired of spending all the time and try to make do with whats there as long as its still working good.
I'd do the flushing/bleeding and drive it some more.
You can get the bleeder caps at most parts stores.
And AutohausAZ sells them.
But with AutohausAZ you get free shipping on orders over $50, so you might want to wait until you need more than just $5 worth of bleeder caps.
You want your rear brakes to grab good with 3-5 clicks of the eBrake handle. Otherwise they need adjusting (you can do that by the cables on the eBrake handle). Wouldn't hurt to have a look at them anyway probably.
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#17 by doonboggle on 20 Aug, 2010 15:09
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First off, let me express my sincere appreciation for all the advice you ... fat ... max ... and others who have taken their time to provide to my post. I have met some wonderful fellows-ladies ... and have learned a plethora of tips, advisories, how-tos, etc. during these last few months.
The test you did for hot/warm wheels is a good test. Fronts will always be a bit hotter. But really hot, is not what you want to have. Picked that up from my model 'A' days ... when brakes were strictly mechanical ... no fluids. Easy to work on as scrambling an egg ... IMO.
Both fronts look good. No significant brake dust accumulation. Pads have good meat left. Passenger rotor appears to have an area of non-contact, but that might be photo illusion. I wouldn't worry too much about it even if so, so long as brake pedal doesn't vibrate when applying brakes. None noticed or felt.
It could just have been a temporary sporadic issue from sitting. I would recommend a thorough flush and bleeding of all the brakes. I use a length of hose on the bleeders to keep from making such a mess all over my stuff. This is one thing I need to study up on and learn. Helped fellows in the past, but never on my own.
What you might find is that a lotta rusty'ish fluid comes out of the calipers for a while. After more driving and more flushing/bleeding they will clear out pretty good - if so. So if I want to tackle this myself, I should get 3-4 cans of brake fluid, and 'flush' the lines ... and reservoir ... out until clean looking ... correct???
Also in that case, rebuilt calipers would be top dog choice of attack. But some of us get tired of spending all the time and try to make do with whats there as long as its still working good. Don't necessarily want to cut corners; want to make sure the 'toy' will stop and be safe.
So what I think I am hearing is that perhaps now, based on what is visible, I should consider a rebuild process on my own ... correcto ??
If so, is it a process that a 'rookie old phart' like myself can perform ... having never done it before? I feel confident, but not sure if 'special' tools are needed.
I'd do the flushing/bleeding and drive it some more. You can get the bleeder caps at most parts stores. And AutohausAZ sells them. But with AutohausAZ you get free shipping on orders over $50, so you might want to wait until you need more than just $5 worth of bleeder caps.
You want your rear brakes to grab good with 3-5 clicks of the eBrake handle. Otherwise they need adjusting (you can do that by the cables on the eBrake handle). Wouldn't hurt to have a look at them anyway probably. Am planning that. -
#18 by fatmobile on 20 Aug, 2010 20:57
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Yep, if you want to do this cheaply but still have good brakes, you'll rebuild your own calipers.
See if you can get the bleeders to loosen without breaking, otherwise you can heat/cool, or smack the metal around it until it comes loose,... once you have it apart.
The hard part about rebuilding them is getting the pistons out.
I used to take them off and push on the brakes until they popped out, That'll still work but one side will pop first,.. then you are left with the other side still part way out.
Now I use an old, cuttoff, rubber brake line hooked up to an air compressor,.. just a small plug-into-the-ciggarette-lighter type.
Doesn't take more than 30psi, I put a 1x4 in front so it doesn't fly out too hard/far.
Do not get your fingers in the way, it can suddenly pop with a good bit of force.
Often the rubber seals look good and I reused them.
The slider bushings are a PITA to get the teflon sheets and pins in place.
Push the pin in,.. and it'll push the teflon out.
Otherwise, if you just want to install rebuilt calipers,.. just about anyone can do that,.. especially with the folks on this forum helping you.
Most likely crap in the brake fluid jambing the pistons,.. but sometimes the rubber brake line disintegrates and will block fluid from returning, keeping pressure on the brakes.
Might want to change those while you are working on the front brakes. Save changing the rear rubber lines for when you have to drop the rear beam. -
#19 by Baron VonZeppelin on 20 Aug, 2010 21:12
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I'm sure everyone as well as myself is glad to help you when we can. Its what we come here for, to help and be helped.
Maybe one of your grandkids can help you / show you the fine points of brake bleeding/flushing ... or a good neighbor.
Until you get clean results is correct.
On the Trucks - every wheel has its own independent brake line from master cylinder to the wheel.
A quart sized bottle of quality fluid should do it.
At least the first round of flush anyway.
What i was trying to say was not necessarily cut a corner - but to flush the system well and drive it some more to see the results.
You may not need a thing other than that.
As far as rebuilding the calipers yourself - probably not.
What i meant by "rebuilt" was newly remanufactured ones.
Vets like me and FatMobile and Max do stuff like that because we are poor and cheap and will go to great lengths to save $20.
Heck, you should see the crap Max runs in his fuel tank.
But you can run into things like pitted rusty pistons and pitted rusty cylinder walls that produce complications, or less than best results.
You'd want to replace the front rubber lines while the caliper is off - the hoses are $10 each new, and will last another 25-35 years if you put new ones.
But here is the deal - the hose comes free from the caliper pretty easy usually - or at least without a big brutal battle. Getting the hose end free from the body end can be almost impossible sometimes.
Takes a guy who knows about using PB Blaster and propane torches and vise grips and wild tricks of all kinds to get those bichtes off - without killing the rest of the brake line or catching the Truck on fire. And he also needs to be prepared to make new bubble flared ends and have new metric fittings if it comes to cutting the old ends off.
If you're going to replace the calipers - might as well do the hoses too. It could get complicated. And then again you might get a gift from above and they just break loose like the wind.
I didn't replace calipers, but i bought new hoses.
Went to replace the hoses - the enemy was prepared for heavy battle - didn't feel like fighting another war - decided the hoses still looked pretty good (even better than before) - proceeded without replacing them.
But they'll need it eventually someday.
Decided i'd wait until it needs a master cylinder someday - because the fittings on it look like they are just waiting to kill me too.
I can't post pictures to Pbucket to link them here - otherwise i'd show you some of the most beautiful VW Truck brakes front and rear that you'll ever see.
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#20 by doonboggle on 20 Aug, 2010 21:40
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Maybe one of your grandkids can help you / show you the fine points of brake bleeding/flushing ... or a good neighbor.
Did this part of the process long ago on a 1950 F1 Ford truck I had at the time; so am somewhat familiar with it. Planning to use the wife to assist.
If you're going to replace the calipers - might as well do the hoses too. It could get complicated. And then again you might get a gift from above and they just break loose like the wind. Think I'll take fat's advice and try to get rebuilt ones ... but from where?
I looked at one of the vendors you mentioned, and could not find 'rebuilt' ones for 'Kelsey-Hayes'. Did a google search ... and same results.
Also, you mentioned hoses ... want to do that also with all 4 wheels. Just do not feel comfortable with the ones there ... considering that the old fellow may have not changed them for years ... and in the very hot Nevada heat we have ... the truck was parked outside all the time ... they're likely ready to be replaced.
Besides rebuilt calipers and hoses ... what else ... and where? Don't use ebay and prefer valid vendors.
I can't post pictures to Pbucket to link them here - otherwise i'd show you some of the most beautiful VW Truck brakes front and rear that you'll ever see.
Will PM my email address so that you can attach them to it. -
#21 by Baron VonZeppelin on 20 Aug, 2010 21:49
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Cool !
I'll send some pics and then come back later and post to some of those questions. -
#22 by GEE-BEE on 21 Aug, 2010 09:35
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Ebay seller Moogie2498 will make you what you want in brake hard lines and flex lines
[email protected] mfg's g60 adapters fro the front MK1 axles ( bolt on)
both jman and moogie2498 mfg the rear caddy disc ebrake cables for both types of rear setup ( disc or Drum )
I found a set of g60 brakes and seat's for 400.00, used the brake caliper's as core's for exchange
Installed a MKII pedal assy, 23 mm master, new booster, 16V rear prop valves
Made all new s/s brake lines
Stop's on a dime
Blackforestindusties sell's a kit,disc, pad's, drum's etc.
MK1autohaus carries caliper's also
Caliper & pad's 63.00
ebay item 250679865703
ebay item : 220211859563
rear drum and shoe's
ebay item 170529715107
rear brake hose
complete set front & rear hoses
advise length
ebay item:230511752262
new booster :280546234856
brembo front Disc
330366837470
brembo rear drum
270474667954
master's cylinder are cheap 29.00
Ebay item 220264379343
If your going to crack the system, might as well replace and bleed the whole system
at the same time
GB -
#23 by doonboggle on 21 Aug, 2010 13:29
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OK; I think I'm on the way. Thanks to some wonderful responses, I have now located a vendor who offers rebuilt Kelsey-Hayes calipers, with pads, at a very attractive price; so am aiming to start with them rather than having to rebuild the present ones.
Next item is hoses. Have also come across several vendors with acceptable prices ... so will add that to the overall list to proceed with ordering 2 front ... and 2 rear.
Then a bleeder kit ... jug of brake fluid ... so that I can flush out the system once the hoses are installed; and lastly bleeder snout plugs.
As Benny Hill used to say on TV ... "Learning all the time!"
With that in mind, I feel that there are other items that I should replace; nothing major I hope ... if you will. I really don't think the master cylinder needs to be replace ... nor the booster.
So other than what I've listed ... calipers, hoses, fluid and bleeder plugs ... what else should I take a look at replacing?
TIA
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#24 by fatmobile on 21 Aug, 2010 21:29
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Still planning to do this yourself?
Do the rebuilt calipers have new slider bushings installed? New pins?
Rubber brakes lines might seperate from the metal lines quite easily, since it was from a dry climate,.. if so you won't need to rip the small clips off to get to them.
I guess while you have the front wheel off, it's a good time to see if you can remove the small screw that holds the rotor steady,... put some antisieze on it and replace so it doesn't break when you NEED to replace it. -
#25 by maxfax on 21 Aug, 2010 21:46
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So other than what I've listed ... calipers, hoses, fluid and bleeder plugs ... what else should I take a look at replacing?
The wheel cylinders on the rear wheels.. That makes for a good time to clean/inspect/grease the rear wheel bearings... Out of all the VW brakes parts they seen to be the first thing to fail for me..
As far as the master cylinder I've had very few of those fail.. One other thing to think about though.. To avoid pushing a bunch of gunk though the master cylinder and the rest of the brake system I like to either suck out all the old brake fluid and gunk from the reservoir, or just completely remove it and clean it out good.. The reservoir just more or less pops on the master cylinder.. A little wiggling and pulling will usually get them free... -
#26 by doonboggle on 21 Aug, 2010 22:03
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So other than what I've listed ... calipers, hoses, fluid and bleeder plugs ... what else should I take a look at replacing?
The wheel cylinders on the rear wheels.. That makes for a good time to clean/inspect/grease the rear wheel bearings... Out of all the VW brakes parts they seen to be the first thing to fail for me.. Was thinking of that this afternoon after posting this ... as in, 'well, the other 2 are done (front), so why not do the rears.'
As far as the master cylinder I've had very few of those fail.. One other thing to think about though.. To avoid pushing a bunch of gunk though the master cylinder and the rest of the brake system I like to either suck out all the old brake fluid and gunk from the reservoir, or just completely remove it and clean it out good.. The reservoir just more or less pops on the master cylinder.. A little wiggling and pulling will usually get them free... EXCELLENT idea; will put that down to definitely do. But does it have under it a gasket or seal that might need replacing to prevent leaks?Quotefatmobile: Do the rebuilt calipers have new slider bushings installed? New pins?
Presume so since the details state rebuilt ... but Baron, who has used the vendor, may be able to answer this. -
#27 by maxfax on 21 Aug, 2010 22:48
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EXCELLENT idea; will put that down to definitely do. But does it have under it a gasket or seal that might need replacing to prevent leaks?[/size][/size]
There are 2 rubber grommet like things in the master cylinder that the reservoir pops into.. Take a look at them to make sure they are not dry and brittle.. Douse them with a little brake fluid to act as lube and pop the reservoir back in.. For the most part they *shouldn't* give you any problems with re sealing.. -
#28 by Baron VonZeppelin on 23 Aug, 2010 10:35
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Doon is looking to get the Loaded K-H calipers with pads from RockAuto.com = $27 each. No Core Charge
Will come with everything down to the bleeder screw dust caps.
Caliper mounting pins could be an exception - but won't be surprised if they are included too.
I haven't bought these from RockAuto before, i bought other items from them in recent past though. Would "like" to take advantage of this offering - but holding back pennies and nickels for new exhaust system. And my existing calipers seem just fine.
I use an impact driver (the kind that turns the screw when you hit it with a hammer) to get the rotor screws out. But you dont have to remove the rotor if you aren't replacing the rotor. (IiRC)
I've also cracked/broken a nipple off the master cylinder reservoir before. Lubing the nipple/grommet areas prior and working/wiggling the lube into the grommet will help a lot.
Work with it carefully (non-rush) with even force so one nipple doesn't pop out before the other (causing the other to crack/break from overblown carry-over force). It was a last minute choice for me when i removed the one i broke - i rushed it. Paid the price.
If master cyl res needs cleaning - it really needs to come off.
Get as much fluid out first, as humanly possible.
They are translucent - so with a light shining at it - you can see if there is any garbage in the bottom.
I'll send you some pics of rear brake hose arrangement later this evening so you can get a feel for what is up on them.
Nobody sells them as the factory 2 hoses into 1 mount arrangement.
Beyond that, many places list them individually - but they are not even correct length. Need to be 16-17 inches long.
I've already inquired with everyone i could find who lists them, and had them measure them.
Its going to take some manipulations on them any way you go.
I have a viable solution with individual hoses from NAPA.
With some ideas/options on remounting to axle housing.
One of which involves cutting off the old hoses from the mount, drilling and tapping the bores, and re-using the stock mount with new threaded hoses.
I've read of some guys using single hoses and hose clamping them to the axle housing. I'm going to shoot for one-upmanship.
Unless they can be bought new from South Africa.
But i don't even know if they continued the original arrangement, as on our older Trucks.
If exisitng rear hoses look good, don't mess with them.
Would be my advice.
Mine have no leaks or complaints - but look like they are ready for new replacements before long.
I wouldn't order for the rear brakes until you pull the drums.
You may need more than aware - or need nothing.
From the front shots - it looks like the old man kept the brakes in good service. And not too long ago. The rears could go either way. -
#29 by doonboggle on 23 Aug, 2010 17:34
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Submitted the 2 lists I sent you for review, last nite. Rockauto is already on the way, and Autohause has not yet shipped. They don't seem to be too much on the ball due to last Thursday I sent in a question concerning several items I was thinking of ordering, and they never responded ... up until today at about 2PM. In meantime, focused on just enough to get their free shipping, and ordered the rest fro Rock.
Hope it all fits ! ! ! !
And that this 'old phart' can do the job with no hitch.Doon is looking to get the Loaded K-H calipers with pads from RockAuto.com = $27 each. No Core Charge
Will come with everything down to the bleeder screw dust caps.
Caliper mounting pins could be an exception - but won't be surprised if they are included too.
I haven't bought these from RockAuto before, i bought other items from them in recent past though. Would "like" to take advantage of this offering - but holding back pennies and nickels for new exhaust system. And my existing calipers seem just fine.
I use an impact driver (the kind that turns the screw when you hit it with a hammer) to get the rotor screws out. But you dont have to remove the rotor if you aren't replacing the rotor. (IiRC)
I've also cracked/broken a nipple off the master cylinder reservoir before. Lubing the nipple/grommet areas prior and working/wiggling the lube into the grommet will help a lot.
Work with it carefully (non-rush) with even force so one nipple doesn't pop out before the other (causing the other to crack/break from overblown carry-over force). It was a last minute choice for me when i removed the one i broke - i rushed it. Paid the price.
If master cyl res needs cleaning - it really needs to come off.
Get as much fluid out first, as humanly possible.
They are translucent - so with a light shining at it - you can see if there is any garbage in the bottom.
I'll send you some pics of rear brake hose arrangement later this evening so you can get a feel for what is up on them.
Nobody sells them as the factory 2 hoses into 1 mount arrangement.
Beyond that, many places list them individually - but they are not even correct length. Need to be 16-17 inches long.
I've already inquired with everyone i could find who lists them, and had them measure them.
Its going to take some manipulations on them any way you go.
I have a viable solution with individual hoses from NAPA.
With some ideas/options on remounting to axle housing.
One of which involves cutting off the old hoses from the mount, drilling and tapping the bores, and re-using the stock mount with new threaded hoses.
I've read of some guys using single hoses and hose clamping them to the axle housing. I'm going to shoot for one-upmanship.
Unless they can be bought new from South Africa.
But i don't even know if they continued the original arrangement, as on our older Trucks.
If exisitng rear hoses look good, don't mess with them.
Would be my advice.
Mine have no leaks or complaints - but look like they are ready for new replacements before long.
I wouldn't order for the rear brakes until you pull the drums.
You may need more than aware - or need nothing.
From the front shots - it looks like the old man kept the brakes in good service. And not too long ago. The rears could go either way.