Timing my 1.6TD HELP!!! - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Timing my 1.6TD HELP!!! by TDsamurai on 12 Apr, 2010 23:16
• Ok so i bought a 1.6TD with an adapter kit to bolt it into my suzuki samurai. The Custom flywheel for this adaptor kit appears to have no TDC mark and it can be bolted on in any orientation to the crank. The flywheel has been removed and the engine is on the engine stand. Now i think i got a bit ahead of myself and i started pulling the pulleys off the front of the engine because i am going to be replacing all the seals and putting a new timing belt on it anyways. Now my concern is that i do not have anyway of knowing where top dead center is, or is there some sort of marks on the crank pulley? I have spent the last few hours trying to find something relevant to what i am doing and i cant find anything. So my question is can i find TDC without pulling the head off and using a dial indicator on the piston? Did i just open a huge can of worms? or is there a simple mark on my crank pulley that i didnt see and putting everything back together is gonna be easy?
  
  Everything i have ever worked on has timing marks on the pulleys, and you just line them up and good to go, but then again this is the first diesel ive worked on.
  
  Thanks for the help in advance.
• #1 by theman53 on 13 Apr, 2010 06:30
• If this is the first vw diesel you have worked on...
  
  Don't try to reuse the heat sheild under an injector.
  Don't pull the wrench away from the head always push toward the head when servicing injectors.
  
  If you ever try a timing belt it is critical to have it perfect or you will bend every valve in the head.
  
  In general if you aren't for sure how the little diesel works you should read and search here. Unless you are independently wealthy and like taking carnage pics These are fairly simple engines that just have little things that are different if you are used to Ford or Chevy stuff in the gas world.
• #2 by TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 07:52
• Libby thanks for the link and i know how to search thank you but for whatever reason when i searched TDC nothing came up at all.
  
  I understand how the engine works, and i have spent countless hours researching over the past 3 days, as well as read the entire faq section.
  
  so i dont think i moved the cam or the crank, just the injection pump pulley which i am taking the injection pump off anyways. If i turn the crank to TDC then i just rotate the cam so the #1 valves are closed? and i also just align the flats on the end of the cam with the head with a locking tool and feeler gauges? i guess i might have a hard time turning the crank if the cam isnt turning though wont i?
  
  The man, What heat shield are you refering to or can i not see it until the injector is removed? and why do you say always push towards the head?
  
  Thanks for the help guys
• #3 by vanbcguy on 13 Apr, 2010 08:14
• For timing the engine, there's no reason to be removing the injectors, but anyhow....
  
  The injector heat shields look like this:
  
  
  
  They cost all of $1.95 and are single use.  If you ever pull your injectors for any reason you need to replace these, so don't pull your injectors unless you already have a bunch sitting there.  Personally I always order an extra bunch whenever I get parts of any sort, just so I have 'em.
  
  The steel injector body likes to seize up in the aluminum head, partly due to corrosion, often also due to carbon buildup either from leaky heat shields, oil that has leaked in to the threads or whatever else finds its way in.  If you look at the aluminum boss the injector is screwed in to, it is VERY thin along the front of the head.  Many, many posts on here about "cracked injector bosses" - most of 'em are related to people pulling on a breaker bar AWAY from the head, thereby putting all the stress on that tiny little aluminum boss.  SNAP.
  
  To avoid carnage, push the bar TOWARDS the head, so the stress is put on the meat of the head instead.  Also the junk that collects in the threads can ball up as you remove the injectors until IT puts enough pressure on the boss to crack it.  Only way to avoid that is to be really slow and easy on the injectors and treat it like a tap - give it lots of oil (liquid wrench, PB Blaster, etc), give it some time to soak, crank it 1/2 turn loose, 1/4 turn tight, 1/2 turn loose, 1/4 turn tight until it's coming out smooth and easy.
  
  Anti-seize on reinstallation is highly recommended - I think the copper type is the best but I just use the grey stuff and haven't had any issues.
• #4 by TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 08:17
• Awesome info thanks.
  
  If the injector doesnt need to be removed would you mind sharing my other options? thanks
• #5 by arb on 13 Apr, 2010 08:35
• Quote from: TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 07:52

  i guess i might have a hard time turning the crank if the cam isnt turning though wont i?
  
  

  
  STOP !!! Do not turn that crank nor cam unless they are in alignment with each other (cam belt still installed correctly) , or as Andrew said, you will bend valves and possibly break the valve guides...  If you have already removed the injection pump or timing belt, I would not do anything until you pulled the head to get TDC with a dial-indicator on a piston crown - then you can install the flywheel and make your own TDC mark on the flywheel, and then you can follow the cam timing threads and IP installation guides.
• #6 by arb on 13 Apr, 2010 10:04
• Quote from: libbybapa on 13 Apr, 2010 09:39

  Pulling the head is not necessary.  You can loosen the cam bearing caps so no valves are open and turn the crank however you please and no piston valve contact will occur.  That's how I always do it when I want to get to TDC with the head on and timing belt off.  You can then rotate the cam (caps still loosened) and lay it down with the lobes up for #1 and the bar inserted at the back.  Don't loosen or do final torque on the cam with the bar installed.  Use a pulley holder.
  
  At least one injector will need to be removed to use the dial indicator to find TDC.  Bear in mind that pistons 1 and 4 move together so TDC is the same for either one (cam determines which is at which stroke).  I mention this because it might be easier to use #4, but neither one is difficult.  Yes, replace the heat shield and certainly use the appropriate precautions when loosening or toqueing the injectors to avoid cracking the head.
  

  
  How true, if you are going to pull the injector(s) then pulling the head is not needed. I like pulling the head on an engine new to me to check the condition of the piston crowns, valves, and head (cups and cracks between the valves) - but that is just me.
• #7 by TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 11:00
• yea i figured loosening the cam would be my best bet. i dont want to pull the head because i dont have enough money for a new gasket yet and i am not one to reuse a headgasket. I will be doing a steel headgasket upgrade and arp head studs after i get the engine in and running properly and after i do my custom suspension. If i loosen the cam bearings, when i torque them back down will i need to do a retorque after i drive it for a bit or is there any other concerns? When you say do not use the bar to torque the cam you mean the cam pulley not the cam bearings right, if i am not mistaken there will be no load on the bar when tightening the bearings, that is if we are talking about the same bar. If i am going to remove an injector should i just remove all of them and rebuild them while i am in there? if so, what is the cost for injector rebuild kits and how difficult is the rebuild to perform?
  
  I am actually kinda glad i did this it, i think i am going to learn alot about this engine over the next couple weeks.
  
  I am still curious as to why VanbcGuy said it isnt necessary to remove an injector.
  
  Thanks for the response everyone.
• #8 by theman53 on 13 Apr, 2010 15:38
• Quote

  If i loosen the cam bearings, when i torque them back down will i need to do a retorque after i drive it for a bit or is there any other concerns?

  no
  
  

  Quote

  When you say do not use the bar to torque the cam you mean the cam pulley not the cam bearings right

  that is correct. Don't try to tighten or loosen the cam sprocket with the TDC tool in the back. Some have used a cresent wrench on the lobe, I personally have held the sprocket by hand, others have a special tool to hold it too.
  
  

  Quote

  If i am going to remove an injector should i just remove all of them and rebuild them while i am in there? if so, what is the cost for injector rebuild kits and how difficult is the rebuild to perform?
  

  This isn't an easy answer. You can rebuild one, but it may or not be fine afterwards. You need to have a pop tester to rebuild these properly.
  
  

  Quote

  I am still curious as to why VanbcGuy said it isnt necessary to remove an injector.
  

  It normally isn't as you have TDC on the flywheel.
• #9 by vanbcguy on 13 Apr, 2010 16:07
• One easy way to find TDC is to set the cam so you've got a valve open on cyl #1.  Turn the crank by hand slowly till you feel the piston make contact (if you pull the glowplugs you'll find this much easier as you're not fighting compression).  Mark that spot on the flywheel.  Now turn the crank the opposite direction slowly until you make contact again.  Mark that position on the flywheel.  True TDC is EXACTLY between your two marks.
  
  No need to pull anything!
• #10 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 13 Apr, 2010 16:33
• Quote from: vanbcguy on 13 Apr, 2010 16:07

  One easy way to find TDC is to set the cam so you've got a valve open on cyl #1.  Turn the crank by hand slowly till you feel the piston make contact (if you pull the glowplugs you'll find this much easier as you're not fighting compression).  Mark that spot on the flywheel.  Now turn the crank the opposite direction slowly until you make contact again.  Mark that position on the flywheel.  True TDC is EXACTLY between your two marks.
  
  No need to pull anything!
  

  
  That is the way to do it!
  
  Re injector removal:
  I never push towards the engine when undoing/doing up injectors. I cannot see 'much' difference in levering the bottom of the injector outwards and the top outwards. Better is to align all pushes and pulls along length of engine. Best is to use a 'T' bar and push and pull at the same time, and so give turning moment only
  
  Whilst running a series of tests with injectors reuse shields by using a set of Mole grips , a 19mm nut and a 3/8" ball bearing. The mole grips can be set to give a 'metered' clamp, and reset the distortion of the heatshield. 
• #11 by TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 17:47
• yea i understand the one valve open idea but you seem to be forgetting i dont have a timing belt on it, and although i dont think i moved the cam or crank pulley i was tapping on the cam pulley trying to get the pulley off and i am not certain that it is in the same position.
  
  And i see absolutely no reason to reuse a part that only costs $2
• #12 by Vincent Waldon on 13 Apr, 2010 19:36
• Quote from: TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 17:47

  you seem to be forgetting i dont have a timing belt on it
  

  
  Nope...  actually, the method described (using a valve as a depth marker) works best with no timing belt installed.
  
  It's also more accurate than just sticking a probe down an injector hole looking for the piston to top out... since the crank can move quite a few degrees at TDC with no appreciable movement of the piston.
• #13 by westcoaster on 13 Apr, 2010 20:30
• Who's kit did you get to swap into the samurai?
  
  I have the acme kit and the timing marks are on the flywheel.
  
  
  At $45 each injector it isn't much to send them off and have them rebuilt by Giles. At least then you know an important component is done right (pop tested and balanced for the set)
• #14 by TDsamurai on 13 Apr, 2010 21:20
• i think for now i will leave the injectors alone.
  
  ok i didnt read that method close enough, now how will i determine whether the valve is fully open or fully closed. Actually i guess that doesn't really matter does it?
  
  I have the acme kit, i didnt buy it direct it is used so there is a bit of surface rust from it sitting around with the PO. After a closer look there is a timing mark on the flywheel and i thought the flywheel could bolt on in any orientation but i now realize that the bolt holes are not in a perfect array. However i dont see anything to align the timing mark on the flywheel with, i thought it was to be aligned with marks on an inspection hole on the bell housing?
  
  Bare with me please i tried to get a haynes manual but apparently they dont even make them, and i cannot find a manual locally so if anyone knows what manual to get that would be great.
  
  I like the sound of that valve method since i don't want to remove my injectors.
  
  Im glad i posted this question, it seems to be getting easier with every response.
  
  Now on another note, a friend of mine told me that the big plastic gismo by my turbo is a safety BOV and that it is set at 10psi and i wont need it, i made a billet block off plate today, i just want to know what everyone else is doing with theirs.
  
  I greatly appreciate the response everyone.