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Author Topic: 1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?  (Read 6731 times)

June 30, 2004, 05:30:25 pm

Spike_TDI

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« on: June 30, 2004, 05:30:25 pm »
This talk about twins has really got my thinking about getting crazy and trying it on my TDI motor. What RPM does the stock Garrett reach full boost at?
I was thinking about using a stock Garrett and my Turbonetics T3 60 trim.



Reply #1June 30, 2004, 10:59:22 pm

QuickTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2004, 10:59:22 pm »
You've got a K03-003 don't you? That would be my choice of second stage turbo. Series the compressors and the turbines, both wastegates connected to the intake manifold. Mash the pedal and the K03 spools instantly to 12lbs and pops its wastegate, all the while the T3 has been accelerating. As the T3 picks up speed, manifold pressure rises and fully opens the K03 wastegate, gradually transferring the work to the larger turbo. With it's wastegate fully forced open the K03 is not much of a restriction and the compressor will be flowing pre-pressurized air so flow should not be an issue there. The T3 wastegate can be used with a controller to limit the total boost. In this configuration the K03 only runs in it's most efficient range (up to about 12psi) and the T3 takes you the rest of the way.

I'm gonna try this setup someday. My only concern is with the TD/TDI oiling system. It does not provide much excess volume and the hydraulic lifter TD/TDI motors use the largest pump available. The extra turbo will need an additional .5-1gpm. More than the stock pump is capable of I'm afraid. Some custom work might be in order...

Reply #2July 01, 2004, 02:02:31 am

fspGTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2004, 02:02:31 am »
If you want more confidence in getting good results, you guys should run some calcs to see how well the turbos match the engine before attempting such a project.  Recommend purchasing the book "turbochargers" by hugh mackinnes, where he actually walks through running the calcs for a 2-stage sequential turbocharger sizing process.  It is neither intuitive nor simple but I think it is important if you want to achieve good results.

Spike: simple question, but complicated answer.  1.6lTD Garrett, according to dyno runs done in my car with a short exhaust system (which didn't help low end torque) in 4th gear, show torque peaking (and thus I believe, peak 10psi boost being hit) at 3500 rpm, while some G-tech testing I've done at other points in time (without various other modifications been done to the car) with testing being done in 3rd gear on a flat road show torque peaking at 2800-3250 rpm (depending on the modifications.)  Some modifications that appear to change this rpm point are: governor/fuel quantity setting, injectors (1.6lTD or 1.9lTD 2-stage), exhaust tract length (full length exhaust seems to beef up the power curve and gets the turbo kicking in at a lower RPM vs a short exhaust that terminates before the fuel tank, etc.)  Heat wrap and ceramic coating on exhaust manifold (both of which help get more energy going through the turbine wheel), etc.

I would also expect it to depend on how quickly the car accelerates, IE: a light weight car with low-rotational inertia wheels and light flywheel and in a low gear will accelerate very quickly, possibly reaching redline before the turbo barely even kicked in at all, vs say a heavy vehicle going wide open throttle in a high gear.

One way that might be good to eliminate the vehicle weight/turbo lag from the measurement is to test while loaded at a constant RPM, and determine if peak boost can be reached or not.  I can say that a stock 1.6lTD w/ Garrett will not be able to make peak boost loaded at steady-state 2000rpm (and might need 2500rpm steady-state wide open loading to develop peak boost), but mine with the mods will make peak 10psi boost at steady-state 2000rpm!  (Now it takes a few (like 3) seconds at WOT to get to peak boost at 2000 rpm, but it does get there!  ;)  Where before when it was stock and I did the same test, IIRC, it got to maybe 2 psi at peak loading at a constant 2000rpm even when I waited a long time like 10 secconds.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #3July 01, 2004, 02:19:11 am

fspGTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2004, 02:19:11 am »
Deo's Rabbit 1.6TD dual sequential (taken from the old board thread here: http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/ubb/get_topic/f/4037/t/2/p/3 ):






Just don't ask him how well it ran.  :lol:
(Is he even up here on the new board?  Anyone know?)
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #4July 01, 2004, 08:39:43 am

QuickTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 08:39:43 am »
Actually, what I'm suggesting isn't really sequential turbocharging. It's more of a 2 stage setup. Both turbo's are regulated so sizing isn't as critical. Once the larger turbo is up to speed the smaller is just along for the ride. This would not be the hot setup for making 50psi of boost (not that you could use it). Running a 2 stage turbo setup just gives quick spooling without the top end penalty of the tiny turbo. BMW uses such a system, as do many heavy truck manufacturers. Performance similar to VNT but with a variable compressor as well.

I've got the book BTW, a good read, if a bit dated. :D

Reply #5July 01, 2004, 11:34:51 am

Spike_TDI

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 11:34:51 am »
He posted a picture of the car on TDIclub that's what got me thinking.
I will do all the calulations before I start building anything. I didn't realize that it took so long to reach 10 psi. If I could find a GT 15 VNT or GT 17 VNT that didn't have the manifold cast into the turbine I'd be set. Run a VNT for the first stage and my T3 for the second. I'd have to use a external wastegate to bypass the VNT when the T3 gets going. It would be instant boost and then big pressure.

Are you still running the KKK03, Quick? What's it make full boost at.

Reply #6July 01, 2004, 12:06:21 pm

DieselsRcool

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 12:06:21 pm »
He sure did a nice clean job. :lol: Love the exotic exhaust system.

Reply #7July 02, 2004, 01:19:28 am

QuickTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2004, 01:19:28 am »
Spike, I'm still running the K03, I think I'd miss the instant boost it provides. It makes full boost (~13-14lbs) by 1750rpm. Revs and boost climb pretty quick so it's difficult to track boost vs rpm at low revs.  The K03 will actually make 2-3lbs of boost when engine braking!

Reply #8July 02, 2004, 11:35:39 am

Spike_TDI

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2004, 11:35:39 am »
Is this what you mean Quick_TD?
Exhaust Manifold -> K03 -> T3 -> Downpipe
Intake Manifold <-K03 <- T3 <- Airbox
 Do you think that the little K03 can flow enough air thought it?
 I'd have to port the heck out of the wastegate.

Reply #9July 02, 2004, 07:34:33 pm

QuickTD

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1.6TD w/ stock Garrett turbo lag?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2004, 07:34:33 pm »
You've got the layout right. I think the K03 compressor would flow enough when it's pressurized by the T3. I would recommend you port the snot out of the wastegate though, maybe even increase the size of the "button". You want the turbine to be almost completely bypassed when it's open. The K03 doesn't need to be running at a very high ressure ratio once the T3 is spinning. The goal here is to produce quality boost. By quality I mean fairly reasonable boost pressure (20-25psi) with excellent efficiency and minimum backpressure. Here is a link to a 3k/warner tech document on the subject -  http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/library/bwts_library_106_107.pdf