Author Topic: 1987 Golf - Won't Start (Read 8814 times)

sean5775 · « **on:** October 25, 2005, 10:18:22 pm »

I have a 1987 VW Golf Diesel that will not start. If I push start it, than after some time it will fire up, and when its running it runs great.

I am stumped as to where to start looking for problems, what it could be.

I checked the glow plugs, they have power, about 11 volts which is within specs. They were recently replaced anyways.

Any help is appreciated. If you need more info let me know, I will check back often.

mortskeg · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2005, 10:47:52 pm »

Hi Sean,
I had this happen with my pickup, where I had hard starting and was able to push start it, the problem was in the glow plug system. If your golf runs great after it is started, and it has no trouble starting up after it is warm, then I would definately suspect something with the glow plugs. However, if it is hard to start cold and warm, then something else is probably wrong.

If you narrow it down to the glow plugs then it sounds like it's not the plugs themselves, as you say they were recently replaced. You might check the glow plug fuse, that is the small strip of metal that is in the plastic box on the engine side of the firewall- at least this is where it is in A1's and I think A2's had them there too? Anyhow at least on my pickup I've had one of the fuse screws get loose, this could cause you to see a voltage reading (11V), but not have enough juice, or amp to really warm them up. Tightening up the screw should solve this. Also the fuse will sometimes get a hairline crack or fail but still be touching enough to get a volt reading but not enough starting juice. Good news is that new fuses are cheap. An easy test is to cycle the glow plugs (with car cold) and not crank the car but turn the key back off and feel around the base of the plug, you should be able to feel some warmth. If you're still having problems and the connections are all tight then I would see if a new relay solves the problems. Also you should check to see if you new glow plugs coorespond with the proper relay, as there were two types, a fast (approx 6 sec) and a slow (approx 20 sec).

The nice thing is that there isn't much trying to keep these engines from running. Sounds like a glow plug deal to me if it runs good once it's started. Here's some other good tips regarding getting NA vw diesel's started from the pickup forum:
http://vwcaddyforum.com/showthread.php?t=3828
Hope this helps.

sean5775 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 26, 2005, 10:29:23 am »

Thanks for the great reply. I will try some of those ideas this evening. I seem to remember cheaping out on glow plugs and not buying the good ones, but last winter it started great all the time. I will buy the good ones this time. Its not that cold here yet, still gets up to 15 C most days and it won't start then.

I have tested the glow plug fuse and that is not the problem, I haven't actually felt the glow plugs to see if they were warm, I did not think that would work but I will give that a try first. There is voltage at the glow plugs and I checked all 4 same voltage. I read somewhere way back in the archives on this forum that to test the relay I should hard wire the glow plugs to the battery and try to start it, I don't really like that idea. Is there another way to test the relay?

I will try these ideas and post back with the results. Thanks alot for the help.

mortskeg · « **Reply #3 on:** October 26, 2005, 11:11:02 am »

Quote from: "sean5775"

I read somewhere way back in the archives on this forum that to test the relay I should hard wire the glow plugs to the battery and try to start it....

Yep, I would probably try this if I were stumped and suspecting the relay. It would work well if you had an assistant inside the car. You could clip a jumper wire to your + on the battery, then clip the other end to one of the glow plugs or the bus bar (careful not to touch the head, etc), give it about a 20 count, and have your friend try cranking. You could either leave the jumper on the plugs or remove it before cranking if you think it might willgle around and ground out on something, but you won't burn the plugs out if they're on for a bit extra.

Let us know what you find out.

sean5775 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 26, 2005, 08:38:37 pm »

Well the glow plugs don't seem to be warm at all when I turn the key on. How noticable should this be? Is it supposed to be only slightly warn, or should it be obvious? There is voltage there, I double checked that again. Is it possible that the glow plugs would be the problem here considering there is enough voltage and the fuse is good, I actually replaced it just to be sure since its only a couple dollars.

commuter boy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 26, 2005, 09:35:56 pm »

The moderately difficult test is to pull the injectors, turn on the glow plugs, and look in the injector holes to see what glow plugs are red hot.

Replace the $0.50 injector seat discs with new ones, btw.

VWRacer · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2005, 10:04:05 am »

Quote from: "sean5775"

Well the glow plugs don't seem to be warm at all when I turn the key on. How noticable should this be? Is it supposed to be only slightly warn, or should it be obvious?

The only engine I've ever tested this empirically on was my '80 n/a Rabbit. I innocently touched a glow plug to see if it was warm after turning on the key and hopping out of the seat to see if they were really warm. I carried a blister for days! :wink:

VWRacer · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2005, 10:25:12 am »

Hmm, just ran an interesting experiment on my Quantum. :?

Since I hadn't yet started it today I took my tire pyrometer out to check the temps of the cold glow plugs - the #1 and #4 were the only ones I could reach, and both measured 59F. Then I turned the key on and hopped out to check the plugs. The base of the #1 was at 72F within 10 seconds, but the #4 plug reached only 62F after two warmup cycles. As usual the engine fired off somewhat roughly after a few seconds of cranking, and the glow plugs measured 125F within 3 minutes as the heat of combustion soaked through.

It would seem that I have a glow plug issue...just masked by the mild temps here in NorCal. :wink:

sean5775 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2005, 02:43:14 pm »

Ok I have pretty much assured myself I have no glow plug issues, they get warm, they have power etc.

I have also ruled out any fuel issues. I got a jug of diesel stuck the fuel line in there instead of the filter and its sucking through plenty of diesel and the injectors although maybe a little dirty, are working sufficiently to start the engine. Remember it runs great when push started.

But I have noticed when cranking that the starter is smoking a bit. I don't think this is normal, and it was replaced 6 months ago. My thoughts are now on whether the morons at the parts store sold me a starter for a gasoline engine rather than for a diesel. Or is there no difference? I think there is but Im asking for someone's more educated opionion than my own before I go out and buy another one. I think the one I have might be a little short on crancking power and thats why the engine is not starting. But it did work before, but it was slightly warmer out then.

janb · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:08:56 pm »

Quote from: "sean5775"

Ok I have pretty much assured myself I have no glow plug issues, they get warm, they have power etc.
'Too bad, easiest fix'

I have also ruled out any fuel issues. ,,,
"Check for any leaks / bubbles in line, as you might be losing prime"

But I have noticed when cranking that the starter is smoking a bit. I don't think this is normal, and it was replaced 6 months ago. My thoughts are now on whether the morons at the parts store sold me a starter for a gasoline engine rather than for a diesel.

Or is there no difference?

Yes, a Gas starter does not have what it takes, you should be able to crank for 10 sec max before smoke, check the size of starter, diesel starters are bigger Dia
...I think the one I have might be a little short on crancking power and thats why the engine is not starting.

Check Battery, and grounds

But it did work before, but it was slightly warmer out then.
lastly, but possibly likely :cry: check compression (I got my diesel gauge on eBay for $35)

sean5775 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2005, 05:52:13 am »

Compression is good, I know that for sure, checked it about 4 weeks ago. Im sure its the starter and I ordered one and I don't even have to pay for it because the parts store screwed up. I have a gasoline starter. Hopefully that does it.

jtanguay · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2005, 06:08:33 am »

Is it cranking over fast enough? Last time winter I had a lot of issues just cranking over with cold thick oil. Switched to synthetic and it cranked over fast enough to start. I know for a fact that I had a glowplug issue as well (some got hot, but not hot enough) so white smoke came out the back for about 2-3 minutes.

and yes, a gasoline starter is meant for around 8:1 compression starting. Diesel is 23:1 and requires greater power for starting. I had an 800 cca battery and on REALLY cold days it seemed to crank over very slowly still! The recommended battery for an IDI diesel is around 1000 cca. A gasoline starter might be around 400-500 cca (just to give you an idea that the gas starter won't turn it over fast enough, or will just burn out).

Do you have the cold start pulled out all the way? Your timing might be slightly off as well.

mortskeg · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2005, 10:35:42 pm »

Cool, Sean;
It sounds like you've found the problem, yep as stated above, the diesel starter is more beefy than the gas. That'd explain why you just don't have quite enough to get it going now that the ambient temps have dropped. Though i did use my diesel starter on a gas 1.5 rabbit engine for a stint- it cranked the gas up no problem! Good luck

sean5775 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2005, 07:09:30 pm »

I had to order in the starter - Im surprised they are so hard to find and expensive. $225 CAN for the cheapest one I could find.

I hope thats the problem. I push started it yesterday and it starts up perfectly fine that way. I will find out friday if thats the problem, thats when the starter comes in. I also have a 1000CCA Battery which is fairly new.

Thanks for all your help. I will be sure to post back if that worked or not.

zyewdall · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2005, 07:54:21 am »

Quote from: "sean5775"

I had to order in the starter - Im surprised they are so hard to find and expensive. $225 CAN for the cheapest one I could find.

I hope thats the problem. I push started it yesterday and it starts up perfectly fine that way. I will find out friday if thats the problem, thats when the starter comes in. I also have a 1000CCA Battery which is fairly new.

Thanks for all your help. I will be sure to post back if that worked or not.

Check out rockauto.com for the starter. I have ordered parts from them for my truck, which most auto parts stores don't even think exists. They are pretty fast on shipping, and the parts seem to be decent quality. Not OEM, but cheaper than the dealer too.