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12mm head gasket on a 11mm engine? 1.6D mech (blown, again)
by
ldeikis
on 11 Jan, 2010 10:33
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Short version: Do you need a gasket exclusively for the 11mm 1.6 head, or do the 11mm and 12mm heads use the same gasket lined up as best you can and just allow some slack around the bolt holes?
Long version:
My rabbit was seeping oil out from the block/head between #2 and #3. My girlfriend's stepfather runs a garage with a lift and tools (almost 300 miles away) and we live in upstate NY with no garage at all... so it seemed reasonable to drive the car there and do the job with heat and a lift during Christmas, using his timing tools to swap the timing belt, tensioner etc.
Things went well until I held the new head gasket up to the old one and realized that the "new" one was different--I think maybe for a 1.5. It's my fault, I somehow misread or mis-cross-referenced the part number. So it was the day before christmas in rural pennsylvania and we have to leave at 5am on the 26th to drive back for work. By sheer luck, there's a garage a few towns away that specializes in old VW work, and he had a Reinz 3 notch gasket in stock... but it's for the later car with 12mm holes. But my car has 11mm bolts. Thing is, the mechanic at that garage (that does a ton of vw work and was well recommended) said they aren't able to get the 11mm gasket except with the smaller oil return hole (I guess for the 1.5?) and so everyone uses the 12mm gasket and just lines it up as best as possible and it's fine.
I called PartsPlaceInc and they confirmed that they ship the same part for 11mm heads and 12mm heads.
So I got the Reinz gasket, which had 12mm bolt holes but otherwise lined up perfectly with the old gasket, lined it up as best as I could, and bolted it down (dry).
800 miles later and I'm leaking oil from the same damn place, AND I've got significant oil/coolant mixing. And it's 8 degrees outside and this is my only transportation. And I just got laid off the day before this hit the fan.
I didn't skim the head or anything when it was out, and I put in new stretch bolts. I still need to do the final, after 1000 mile torque, but I'm pessimistic about it solving this issue.
If I put in the wrong gasket and pulling it all apart in the snow and putting in a new one, or a new one and studs, is very likely to solve the problem, I can try. If I did it right and it's likely the head is warped or something, that's a major problem given the car's general shape and value.
Help!
Thanks.
Luke
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#1
by
rs899
on 11 Jan, 2010 11:35
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If I recall correctly, that's what I used last time on my Rabbit pickup with 11mm bolts in 1997 and it hasn't missed a beat... Just lucky, I guess...
Rick
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#2
by
ldeikis
on 11 Jan, 2010 12:46
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The car had 11mm allen bolts in it. I read--I believe on here--that they tend to loosen, which is why they switched to the stretch bolts on the 12mm heads. Either way, I had already ordered a set of 11mm bolts (from PartsPlaceInc, which is where I was getting the timing belt/pulley and some other stuff from) that came with 11mm triple square bolts instead of Allens. I put them in as per the instructions that came with the Reinz gasket, which was 35NM, then 60NM, then 2 90 degree additional turns, a heat cycle (in this case, I drove around for about a half hour, going to the beer store to buy a thankyou for the guy who let me use the garage) then an additional 90 degrees. It says to do one more 90 degree turn after 1000km with the engine cold, which is due right now. That's more or less what Bentley specifies for the multipoint (triple square) bolts.
Was it a mistake to use the triple square 11mm bolts? I believe(d) them to be stretch bolts and my understanding is that the stretch bolts hold pressure more evenly than the non-stretch ones. I still have the 11mm allen heads, which look fine, I just thought the triplesquare/stretch was the better product so I swapped them.
I cleaned the head and block surfaces with a plastic scraper and brake cleaner on paper towels and didn't see any issues. Not impossible I missed something, I guess, but I did look. Before I went in and changed it, the coolant was NOT mixing with oil, just the oil was escaping to the outside world, so it doesn't seem likely the block is cracked that way.
I made sure the holes in the block were extremely clean and free of debris.
I don't know if I've EVER put on stretch bolts before, so I don't know how they're "supposed" to feel. They didn't feel TIGHT in a traditional sense--with a 24" or so 1/2" ratchet it was not hard for me to turn those 90 degree turns... just kind of a consistent, firm pull on the ratchet. It didn't make any of the popping/cracking noises I've read about.
Do you guys think the 11mm triple squares are the wrong choice? I'm wary of trying to swap the allens back in for fear of oil/coolant getting down in the holes in the block and cracking the thing as I try to tighten it. Is there any chance of me curing this without having to pull the head again? Is there actually a source for a 3 notch 11mm 1.6 head gasket?
I'm really dreading doing this again in the cold, but if I can find a real 11mm gasket I'd probably be willing to order ARP studs and just go for it again. I love the car and want to fix it, but it's cosmetically pretty rough and not worth a whole lot, so I don't want to vomit huge amounts of money into him.
I thought I had researched this so well prior to doing it, and now I feel like a total ignoramus.
Luke
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#3
by
truckinwagen
on 11 Jan, 2010 13:14
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the 11mm triple square bolts they sold you are probably gasser head bolts, which are stretch bolts.
the common understanding is that they do not stand up to the extra load of the diesel very well.
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
-Owen
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#4
by
ldeikis
on 11 Jan, 2010 13:19
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>
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
>
Anyone have input on if there's hope of fixing this issue without a new head gasket? It might be a dumb question, but I don't know if the things allow seepage by or actually rupture... ie, can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
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#5
by
truckinwagen
on 11 Jan, 2010 13:22
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you might be able to replace each bolt one at a time with the studs, torque it down and have it be fine.
but since there is oil between the gasket and block/head now, I think the chances of it are slim.
the headgasket really likes a good clean surface to seal against.
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#6
by
Vincent Waldon
on 11 Jan, 2010 14:01
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can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
Because the studs are reusable you can actually try this and see, without risk. If you win replacing the bolts one at a time great... if not... tear it down and change out the gasket.
All things being equal the "correct" approach is to start over...the gaskets are specifically designed to squish once and once only...but in the real world of freezing temperatures etc sometimes you gotta experiment?!
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#7
by
dennis
on 11 Jan, 2010 14:29
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>
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
>
Anyone have input on if there's hope of fixing this issue without a new head gasket? It might be a dumb question, but I don't know if the things allow seepage by or actually rupture... ie, can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
In a pinch I would get the ARP fasteners, and Crank em down to max torque in the center first (Two at a time) and give her a try. In the future as Im sure you have now found out always streight edge a head every time it is off.
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#8
by
ldeikis
on 11 Jan, 2010 15:09
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Because the studs are reusable you can actually try this and see, without risk. If you win replacing the bolts one at a time great... if not... tear it down and change out the gasket.
This sounds like my best plan. If I do it one at a time, am I running a risk of damaging the head, or just of not fixing my leak? I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish and end up warping the head to hell in an effort to avoid tearing it down.
I guess I'll order the ARP204-4701 from Summit?
Also, RE finding a true 11mm gasket if I do have to tear it back down... any ideas, or is that a non-starter?
Luke
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#9
by
rabbitman
on 11 Jan, 2010 15:12
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#10
by
RustyCaddy
on 11 Jan, 2010 18:44
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AutohauzAz has three notch gaskets for 11mm headbolt 1.6 liter engines. Jack at VW diesel sends out the same head gaskets for either 11 or 12mm so there must be some interchangeability. Studs are nice since they kinda hold the head gasket in place when you put the cylinder head on the block.
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#11
by
Vanagoner
on 11 Jan, 2010 19:30
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I have used 12mm gasket(s) on an 11mm engine, but it was a waste of time and money because the 11mm block was shot. learned the hard way. I know what it's like to work outside, and not have enough money for a HG much less an engine. If there is any way, this looks like it could be nice on craigslist-
http://poconos.craigslist.org/pts/1546622881.htmlthe 12mm engines are really nice, and I wouldn't run any of them without head studs at this point, they make such a difference. Good luck.
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#12
by
Vanagoner
on 11 Jan, 2010 19:55
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#13
by
8v-of-fury
on 11 Jan, 2010 20:33
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So the determining part between the 11mm and 12mm blocks is the diameter of the hole? I thought there was an issue with depth as well? Drilling and tapping to 12mm and then maybe even finding a 1.6 mech head for better breathing? ( do the 1.6 heads differ over the 1.5 heads? at all )
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#14
by
rabbitman
on 11 Jan, 2010 20:50
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So the determining part between the 11mm and 12mm blocks is the diameter of the hole? I thought there was an issue with depth as well? Drilling and tapping to 12mm and then maybe even finding a 1.6 mech head for better breathing? ( do the 1.6 heads differ over the 1.5 heads? at all )
I think he meant drill the holes in the head out to 12mm, I've heard of it being done. I doubt you could convert a 11mm block to 12mm, unless the threads were the same.........