Author Topic: Overheating problem in TD bus  (Read 5186 times)

December 13, 2009, 07:32:27 pm

speedy

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Overheating problem in TD bus
« on: December 13, 2009, 07:32:27 pm »
I am having an overheating problem in my '73 bus with 1.6 Quantum TD.  I just installed twin radiators under the floor of the bus and was not having this problem before, when I had one rad under the floor and one in the engine compartment.

The symptoms:  Coolant temp fluctuates wildly, will sometimes go up/down 30 degrees in a couple of seconds.  Water is not flowing properly through the radiators when the system comes up to temperature.  There is a single fan on one of the radiators set for 85C and it never comes on.  Return hose from the radiators is always cool where it meets the water pump housing.  After a while, pressure builds up in the system and vents through the radiator cap on the overflow tank.  Coolant boils in the overflow tank and down the large hose to the water pump.  When the engine is cold, a steady stream of water flows through the small hose coming into the overflow tank but when it gets hot the stream is intermittent.  Watching the temp gauge, sharp drops in temp correspond to flow through this hose where increases correspond to lack of flow through this hose.

I do not see any evidence of a blown head gasket - no oil in the water, no stinky fumes coming from the overflow tank, just smells like steam.  Because of this and the fact that this problem occurred right when I made the change to the radiators makes me think it's some sort of problem with the way my hoses are routed but I can't figure out what it could be.  I don't see how it could matter which way the water flows through the radiators.

Pictures of the rads and hose routing are at the link below my name.  Any ideas appreciated.

Thanks,

-David
http://motorheads.net/vw/turbobus/page7.html



Reply #1December 13, 2009, 08:06:09 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 08:06:09 pm »
Looks like a lot of potential for airlock.
I'd at least measure the coolant capacity for each component, add it together, ad measure fill volume.

The return to reservoir ought to come from the top of the rad.  You could accomplish this with a hose in a hose arrangement on the out rad hose...
---------rad-top-----------------
 #
  • ------rad-bottom-------------
[#L___________________
[#____rad_return_hose___
 #\
 #  \ compression fitting/solder
 #
 #=res=return=====

Clear as mud? ???

Also radiators  are more efficient with more temp differential,  would running them in parallel be better than series?  For sure would reduce flow resistance.
I like how they fit under the van.

Reply #2December 13, 2009, 10:17:36 pm

speedy

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 10:17:36 pm »
Thanks for the reply, it really got my mind going.  The return line to the reservoir does actually come from the top of the radiator, or at least very close to it.  The more I think about it, the more I agree with you that it is an airlock problem because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) if the water pump was moving coolant, then there would be coolant returning to the reservoir through the small hose.  I used to think that only happened when the thermostat was open but after studying the diagrams I see that is not the case.

But if there is air in the system, where is it?  Shouldn't be in the rads because it would be returned to the reservoir through the existing return hoses.  If there is air in the water pump, wouldn't it bubble up into the head?  This is beginning to make sense.  Back when I had a radiator in the engine compartment, it had a return to the reservoir that was above the cylinder head level, and in fact the hose went directly up and over the engine to it.  Now, both returns are well below cylinder head level.  I bet I need a bleed valve near the top of the engine...  and wouldn't you know it, googling "vanagon engine air bleed" pulled up this:

http://www.relitech.com/tech/19wpump/hsbleed.jpg

I feel so stoopid now.

As for series/parallel, I did consider the latter but that arrangement requires more fittings/hoses and it cannot be guaranteed how much water will go to each radiator.  Also staging the fans would not work as well.  Temp differential would be the same as you still have the same amount of water flowing across the same area of radiator either way, but some say that heat will transfer better if the coolant is moving more slowly, which would be a benefit to the parallel arrangement.  I may try it someday.

-David

Reply #3December 13, 2009, 11:26:27 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 11:26:27 pm »
What pressure cap are you running?

The return line to the reservoir does actually come from the top of the radiator, or at least very close to it.  The more I think about it, the more I agree with you that it is an airlock problem because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) if the water pump was moving coolant, then there would be coolant returning to the reservoir through the small hose.  
This is the case.

But if there is air in the system, where is it?  Shouldn't be in the rads because it would be returned to the reservoir through the existing return hoses.  If there is air in the water pump, wouldn't it bubble up into the head?  
I think there are two factors.
1  A small amount of air will swell to a larger volume at 200F, and if it will tend to impede flow.
2  The more linear feet you move liquid through a tube, the greater the resitance to flow, and you are at 9? times what the water pump was ever meant to see.  Corners are bad too, but velocity is low, so who knows.

If resistance is great enough to let water boil in the head, all bets are off, coolant flow stops.

This is beginning to make sense.  Back when I had a radiator in the engine compartment, it had a return to the reservoir that was above the cylinder head level, and in fact the hose went directly up and over the engine to it.  Now, both returns are well below cylinder head level.  I bet I need a bleed valve near the top of the engine...
the reservoir needs to be at the top of the cooling system to perform the bleed function properly.  a seperate bleeder may work, but adds complexity, and service difficulty, esp. on the side of the road.

and wouldn't you know it, googling "vanagon engine air bleed" pulled up this:

http://www.relitech.com/tech/19wpump/hsbleed.jpg

I feel so stoopid now.
Did yo also read the Vanagon bleed procedure?
2200 RPM on a 23 degree slope to 5 minutes?
this was conceived by a brilliant person with an engineering degree? :-\
You are not the dumb one.
As for series/parallel, I did consider the latter but that arrangement requires more fittings/hoses and it cannot be guaranteed how much water will go to each radiator.  Also staging the fans would not work as well.  Temp differential would be the same as you still have the same amount of water flowing across the same area of radiator either way, but some say that heat will transfer better if the coolant is moving more slowly, which would be a benefit to the parallel arrangement.  I may try it someday.
-David
Ease of flow is also a factor at play,   Your radiator resistance will be half, as will coolant speed.  If you run a Y pipe at each end of the rad pair, the only difference between the two will be relative  deposit buildup in the tubes, and flow will be pretty well equal.  As is, i think rad #2 is not doing much more than acting as a tank.  if you can access an IR temp gun, you can check for yourself(a lot of things).most emission shops will have one if a friend doesn't.  The first 1/4-1/3 of a  rad sheds about as much heat as the rest.  Run the fans so they are triggered by either or both switches, extra safety factor :)
Between the big transfer pipes, and 2 rads, you have almost double stock coolant capacity,  I think if the stuff were moving, you'd be fine.

Once you get flow dialed, it will be worth your time to do some experimenting with air dams encouraging flow.  done right, the E-fan probably won't need to run on the highway.

Taking the Chevy RV I had for awhile as an example... a 454 in a low perf application only needs 3/8fuel line, but since  it is 30 feet from tank to motor, GM used 1/2" for that run.  Why? Straight line friction would have let 3/8 line perform like 1/4.  You might run a slightly larger line on the bleed hose.



Can you tell I have fought this battle before?  My Volvo VW diesel came from the factory with over 32 hose clamp coolant connections :o   there is a theme here...
I added a very similar aux rad to a friends 350 Chevy converted Mercedes 309D bus, and it worked pretty well.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 11:29:26 pm by 745 turbogreasel »

Reply #4December 14, 2009, 12:29:02 am

745 turbogreasel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 12:29:02 am »
Straight from the Bentley manual(gas  version), I'll admit I might have forgot the exact degree of slope it called for.
As I remember there is a bleed at the rad in a vanagon as well
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:31:50 am by 745 turbogreasel »

Reply #5December 14, 2009, 09:12:01 am

moTthediesel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 09:12:01 am »
Very interesting David!

I've been chasing many of the same demons with the Quantum engine I have in the back of my 356. I used a large aftermarket aluminum radiator from Summit mounted in the engine compartment. I tried scooping air from under the car through plastic ducting into the radiator. The idea was that the ducting would insure that only fresh outside air would pass through the rad, not air already heated by the engine.

Great plan eh? Unfortunately, no matter what I did, it always ran too hot. I tried two or three different scoops under the car, several different thermostats, shrouded fan, unshrouded fan, etc. We also took the original oil to water oil cooler out and replaced it with a forward mounted oil to air cooler. No matter what we did, the car ran between 210 and 230 all the time, hot enough to give me the heebee jeebee's every time I drove it.

Well, the car's back up on blocks in my little shop of horrors now, and I'm trying some new ideas. Now we're trying twin identical motorcycle radiators just behind the headlights up front, plumbed in parallel. For additional radiation area we're routing the hot water forward to the rad through baseboard heater elements in the space between the pan and the rocker panel. We'll see what happens  ::)

For your application I think that parallel plumbing would help. The other thing is that you must, by whatever means necessary, get all the air out of the system. Even if the Vanagon system used a reservoir that was not at the high point, I don't think anyone would argue that it's good practice to do so. Try mounting the tank higher than the head, and run the engine hot with the tank open, that SHOULD get rid of all the air.

V. cool project! Good luck with it --

'82 LandCruiser Diesel Conversion
4Cylinder 3B/KKKturbo/AudiIntercooler(gone, BNF)
'92 Dodge/Cummins D350 Getrag Dually
356 w/Quantum 1.6TD (73 mpg!)
'85 BMW 524td (Der Komisar) 
'00 Jetta TDI 5spd

Reply #6December 14, 2009, 12:23:06 pm

speedy

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 12:23:06 pm »
Turbogreasel:  The pressure cap is the stock Quantum cap, and it does seem to vent properly.   :( 

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that the second rad is only functioning as a tank.  That may be true under normal circumstances but when the weather turns hot and the engine is under load, that will change.  To see why series/parallel doesn't matter, consider the case where the cooling needs of the engine can be met by 50% of the radiator capacity.  In the series case, the first rad does all the cooling and the second rad does none (not quite true, but this is hypothetical).  In the parallel case, the first half of each rad does all the cooling and the second half of each rad does none.  No difference there, really.  As I said before the point about coolant speed is valid and I may try parallel someday just to see how it works.  Can't argue with the point about resistance either but I don't think it is significant. 

If, after this bleeding issue is resolved, the engine is still running hot then I will monitor the temps at the radiators and if they are cooler than the engine I will suspect a water flow issue.  This was not the case however when I had the twin rads in the engine compartment and believe it or not, there is only about 4 feet more pipe with the rads under the floor than there was with them in the engine compartment.

Andrew:  My bus does not have the hose going from the center of the cylinder head to the expansion tank, and neither did the Quantum donor car.  I didn't realize that the Vanagons had it until I read your oil-cooler-reroute thread.  I just got back from Home Depot with stuff to build a quarter-inch barbed fitting into the line out of the cylinder head back to the expansion tank, but now I'm wondering if I need a bigger hose, a/la the 5/8" looking one on the Vanagon diesel installs, of which I have dozens of pictures.  That will also require a new overflow tank since mine does not have the connection at the top for that hose.  I wonder why that hose needs to be so large, considering that on the Quantum, the air gets to the rad via a large hose but then must still take a small hose to the expansion tank.  Sure would be easier for me if I could get away with a smaller one.

Incidentally, you were right about the metal hose to the turbo, in fact it failed almost immediately after I installed it.  I ordered a neoprene-coated spiral reinforced tube from McMaster-Carr and installed it a few days ago and oh boy, is the bus ever quiet now!  Not Lexus-quiet of course, but the noise level in the drivers seat went from deafening to merely loud, or about what it was with the stock gas engine.  I'm even thinking of wrapping the hose with something to further reduce the noise level.  Who would have thought that all of that noise could come through that little teeny turbo?

MoT:  Are you talking about a Porsche 356?  Hard for me to imagine an upright engine in one of those, not to mention that the purists are probably all up in arms.   :)   A much braver project than mine, for sure.  If the motorcycle radiators are fairly large and you can get enough air to them, I think it could work.  I don't know what you are using for baseboard heater elements, but wouldn't that be bad in the summer?  They do make finned copper pipe, I believe which might help although I am somewhat wary of copper in automotive applications because of fatigue.  If you're using that, be sure to isolate it properly (listen to me talking about metal fatigue after I put an aluminum-foil pipe on my turbo!  The nerve!   ;) )

Thanks for the replies - I will probably go ahead with the small line project for the moment since I have the parts.  Still need to think/learn more though.

-David

Reply #7December 14, 2009, 12:27:12 pm

Rabbit on Roids

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 12:27:12 pm »
2 pipes flow better than one dude... so, if your radiators were in a series, you would be flowing into one, then out of that one ant into the next one. so its going to have the restrictions from the first radiator, and from the second radiator, all at once with that setup. if you paralell them, ie: split them with a y pipe, you eliminate most of the restrictions. then its like having one really big less restrictive radiator.

Reply #8December 14, 2009, 12:47:52 pm

Rabbit on Roids

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 12:47:52 pm »
yea, true, but i dont think about the  "what ifs" of everything. i bet the setup he has right now would work fine if it didnt have massive amounts of air in it.

Reply #9December 14, 2009, 01:35:15 pm

moTthediesel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 01:35:15 pm »
MoT:  Are you talking about a Porsche 356?  Hard for me to imagine an upright engine in one of those, not to mention that the purists are probably all up in arms.   :)   A much braver project than mine, for sure.  If the motorcycle radiators are fairly large and you can get enough air to them, I think it could work.  I don't know what you are using for baseboard heater elements, but wouldn't that be bad in the summer?  They do make finned copper pipe, I believe which might help although I am somewhat wary of copper in automotive applications because of fatigue.  If you're using that, be sure to isolate it properly (listen to me talking about metal fatigue after I put an aluminum-foil pipe on my turbo!  The nerve!


Yes, it's a '65 SC coupe, and the engine fits under the rear deck quite well actually. The finned copper pipes are outside, so they will  not be heating the interior of the car. They will be rubber mounted, with hose connections on both ends, so I'm not too worried about fatigue, and the rads are brass anyway so there's already copper in the system.

I'm also fitting a custom type 1 VW transmission now with very tall gearing, we're shooting for 60 mpg next summer. I don't let the 356 purists get me down, I've owned this car over 30 years now, so I'll do whatever I want with it -- though I am always looking over my shoulder in case there is a 356 Registry "Death Squad" after me.

Of course, unless they have a very special AC gasser in the back of their tub, they're not going to catch mine anyway  ;) 
'82 LandCruiser Diesel Conversion
4Cylinder 3B/KKKturbo/AudiIntercooler(gone, BNF)
'92 Dodge/Cummins D350 Getrag Dually
356 w/Quantum 1.6TD (73 mpg!)
'85 BMW 524td (Der Komisar) 
'00 Jetta TDI 5spd

Reply #10December 14, 2009, 01:55:43 pm

Rabbit on Roids

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 01:55:43 pm »
whats the very special AC gasser? ancient performance intrigues me...

Reply #11December 14, 2009, 02:51:54 pm

moTthediesel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 02:51:54 pm »
A ir C ooled  ;)
'82 LandCruiser Diesel Conversion
4Cylinder 3B/KKKturbo/AudiIntercooler(gone, BNF)
'92 Dodge/Cummins D350 Getrag Dually
356 w/Quantum 1.6TD (73 mpg!)
'85 BMW 524td (Der Komisar) 
'00 Jetta TDI 5spd

Reply #12December 14, 2009, 02:57:00 pm

Wayland

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 02:57:00 pm »
Andrew:  My bus does not have the hose going from the center of the cylinder head to the expansion tank, and neither did the Quantum donor car.  I didn't realize that the Vanagons had it until I read your oil-cooler-reroute thread.  I just got back from Home Depot with stuff to build a quarter-inch barbed fitting into the line out of the cylinder head back to the expansion tank, but now I'm wondering if I need a bigger hose, a/la the 5/8" looking one on the Vanagon diesel installs, of which I have dozens of pictures.  That will also require a new overflow tank since mine does not have the connection at the top for that hose.  I wonder why that hose needs to be so large, considering that on the Quantum, the air gets to the rad via a large hose but then must still take a small hose to the expansion tank.  Sure would be easier for me if I could get away with a smaller one.

I would have to look at and think about the vanagon hose routing to figure out why they went with such a large hose there.  It may very well not be necessary, especially if the only reason for it is to purge air.  Also, the vanagon hoses can be a bit deceiving.  Several of them have restrictors in them and I'm not sure if that circuit does or not.

I'm pretty sure that hose does have a restrictor in it (it's been a while since I sold my diesel vanagon). You don't actually want alot of flow through this hose as it dumps hot water into the overflow tank, which will then be sucked back into the water pump.
84 Grumman Olsen Kubvan
93 Dodge CTD Truck

Reply #13December 14, 2009, 08:00:05 pm

Rabbit on Roids

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 08:00:05 pm »
A ir C ooled  ;)

they made a special air cooled engine? i thought you had to build one yourself to get any real power out of them?

Reply #14December 14, 2009, 11:07:18 pm

moTthediesel

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Re: Overheating problem in TD bus
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 11:07:18 pm »

they made a special air cooled engine? i thought you had to build one yourself to get any real power out of them?

Well, that's what I mean -- no original air cooled pushrod Porsche engine would stay with my oil burner  ;D

For the cars that have been highly tuned, or powered with big built VW type 4 engines, or even 911 six cylinder lumps -- that's a different matter!
'82 LandCruiser Diesel Conversion
4Cylinder 3B/KKKturbo/AudiIntercooler(gone, BNF)
'92 Dodge/Cummins D350 Getrag Dually
356 w/Quantum 1.6TD (73 mpg!)
'85 BMW 524td (Der Komisar) 
'00 Jetta TDI 5spd