...CRANK, NO START ISSUE....

[TDDrew]

Any tips or special tools for removing the blasted stop solenoids out of the IP? I have 3 IP's and the stop solenoids all seem to be seized in there. Is there a special socket or wrench that can be made or purchased for taking these suckers out? And when you get them out is there anyhting I should pay special attention to?
Ohh yah, here's the problem I am having:

My '79 Rabbit with 1.6 N/A suddenly stopped starting. Cranks but does not start. I cranked it for a long time while jumping it and it finally started and ran, but got lots of white smoke under accleration. Can't get it to start now after buying a new battery. Fuel is getting to the injectors but it does not seem like much is sqiurting out. Fuel is being lifted to the pump. I have power at the solenoid at start position and when cranking. It used to intermittantly make some stinky smoke when cranking but today I got nothing. Suspect the solenoid or pump is failed/failing. I would like to try one of the other stop solenoids that I have, but like I said... they won't come out!  

Thanks for reading! Questions, comments, concerns, good advice, constructive criticism, all welcome!  

[TDDrew]

so I pulled a solinoid out and saw how that all works. Like you said, if it clicks it should be fine. But I got the one out of the vehicle and just took a quick look to make sure, since it decided to break free with no hastles.

- Yup starter cranks fast until batt gets low, I need a booster pack or charger.
- I have power at the buss bar, afraid to check amps with my meter as it only goes to 10 before the fuse blows.
-I half ass checked the timing, the pump and the crank marks line up and when you look in through the valve cover you can see the #1 cam lobes pointing up on compression.
- Pulled the glow plugs and hit em with the jumper cables (the glows are the pointed ones. 2 are made in Italy i think, 2 are autolite).  They seem to fire up really quickly and get super hot. All get hot pretty much in the same amout of time, not like one seems weaker. But I don't even know if that is a valid test or have seen what a new glow will do. When the plugs are in the head they all feel warm and the head gets warm.

One other thing is the glow plug light/relay stays on for a long time...more than 30 seconds. When I crank it now after the light goes out the engine pops for a bit at first like it wants to start, then fades out to just plain cranking.  I'm leaning towards getting some new glows at this point, but don't want to throw any money away. It doesn't make sense why weak glows would just not fire the car one cold morning and then on a relatively hot day it still won't start.

Thanks for the help so far. Let me know what you think.   Thanks!
-Drew

[Vincent Waldon]

If your glow plugs get red hot they are fine... spend your money elsewhere. Those Autolites are gonna leave you stranded one day, mind you.

Is this entirely a starting issue (ie once the car warms up everything is fine) or are there symptoms (smoke, power, etc) even with the engine warm?

[TDDrew]

As of right now I can not get it to start. It wants to start. The last time I got it started though I noticed it was missfiring/rough idle and I saw what looked like white smoke under WOT, but it was dark with headlights on my back. If I cracked #1 line at the injector it had the least effect on idle. #2, 3, 4 made it idle worse. There is an air bubble in the clear pump feed line, but I had the line disconnected and when it is cranking there is no air. Pump is sucking fuel. If you crank the engine with the glow plugs jumped it really bogs down the starter.
One other thing I noticed when I pulled the glows out that I just cleaned was there was soot boogers built up and they were wet with fuel (this is after lots of cranking with not starting). I connected a fresh fuel tank right to the pump to eliminate the fuel in the tank as a cause (most unlikely since I filled up not to long ago and have been running fine for almost a week before then).

This is all very puzzling. It was running fine and now it won't start 

[macka]

Check your timing properly, if its outta spec, its a *** to start. I learnt the hard way.

[TDDrew]

Thanks to everyone for the input.  I hate it when I help people and don't hear back or get so much as a "thanks". Haven't experienced that on this forum though   

Here's the update:

I removed the valve cover, got the timing tools and verified the timing is dead on. Hooked up a good battery charger so I can crank to my hearts delight. So while I was cranking it I noticed I was getting a ton of smoke under the hood as I left the air filter and crank case hose off. Well I set the end of the hose in the cowl and cranked it over and all the smoke is coming from the crank case and out the hose! It must have been cycling into the intake and back out the exhaust before when everything was hooked up. So it still won't start. It chugs real fast like it wants to start and makes a lot of smoke at the wrong hole 
I am going to check compression tomorrow and see what the final verdict says... 

P.S. Ambient temp at 40F.

[Vincent Waldon]

Have the injectors pop tested.

... and be sure to use new heat shields when you reinstall 'em.   

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Drew, i think i would try and check how long the voltage actually stays on at the buss bar - after the key is switched on.

Your car would have come with a slow relay and slow glow plugs, originally - i'm pretty sure.
10-15 seconds is around average for the slow.

Fast ones are about 4-6 seconds.

You may also have mixed assortment of fast and slow glowplugs installed, since they are also different types. Or even all fast Gplugs installed.

The Gplug light in the dash is mostly just an indicator - not an actual gauge of operation - defacto.

See how long current stays on at the buss bar and gauge that time.
Then use that timeframe in instrumenting the ignition switch to start the engine. The condition could be cooled way down by the time the light goes off in dash - is what i'm getting at. If the light stays on for 25-30 seconds, but the plugs only fire for 12-15 seconds, you need to be hitting the switch sooner.

As soon as the Gplugs cycle - you need to be cranking. On one of my cars - when its under 50* F - i always cycle the Gplugs twice in a row before trying to crank - just for extra measure.

Another troubleshoot step is to see how well it roll cranks.
Cycle the Gplugs first of course, and pull out the cold start knob.
Many times one will roll crank easy/fine - that is hard to start electrically.

Test the ohms at batt cable ends with switch on - and switch off, should be low readings (almost same too) in both conditions. The ground cables can often be probmatic - but still "seem" to have enough cranking speed.

Just more friendly advices.
Good luck on it, and best wishes on a good comp test.

[TDDrew]

Awesome info guys! I was wondering what was meant by using the proper procedure to prevent head cracking. Just out of curiosity, why is it important to get new injector heat shields? They look like thick steel to me.

So I have been with holding information here a little. I just put this engine in while I get the other one rebuilt (I have 12mm head bolt 1.6 with low oil pressure). It ran fine for about a month and then just took a *** one morning when I was starting it. And as far as the glow plug light goes it worked normally before I did the swap. And I verified there is power at the buss bar as long as the glow plug light is on. I did swap the originol temp sensor from the originol engine too, nothing changed. I also have a spare relay that does the exact same thing. Wires are all in the right place. The glow plugs glow orange hot immediatly when ingintion turned on, I have some pix looking in throught the injector holes, looks pretty cool.

Here are the compression test results: 310 on #1, 290 on #2, 210 #3, 200 on #4. this is all after 5 cranks. Max psi after about 8 cranks on #1 was a little over 400. So that explains the no start. I got some starting fluid and that gets it going. Smokes like a son of a *** now.
What does not make sense is why all of the sudden it just crapped out. I put a new head gasket on the engine, used the stretch bolts from partsplaceinc.com. There is no signs of headgasket failure. I suspect rings or cracked block. I will have to tear down the engine later and find the cause. Until then it will be and ether baby!

Thanks for everyones input, hope this post can help  other people with no start issues.

-Drew

[Vincent Waldon]

Just out of curiosity, why is it important to get new injector heat shields? They look like thick steel to me

They deform as the injector is tightened down to form a proper seal... so they'll never seal properly again after they are used once.

[macka]

I use wd40 as starting fluid, its not so hard on the engine like ether is. my favourite use for ether is in the potato cannon