Injector pump question relating to WVO conversion.

[CathodeRayTube]

Hello! this is my first post on this forum...I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system, and i plan to use the 1.6l SB series IDI engine.

My question is, when the engine is not running at all, can fuel be forced thru the injector pump inlet and thru the injectors and back out the return lines via an external electric pump? What this is supposed to accomplish is to prime the entire IP/injector system with electrically preheated HOT WVO before the engine even starts, thus allowing the engine to start cold on heated WVO with no ill or damaging side affects..in theory..

any ideas?

[Rabbit on Roids]

it wont work. you need over 1800 psi to make the fuel flow through the injector lines. you can get it circulating through the pump, and some of the injector return lines, but not the injectors themselves. not with a small lift pump anyways. ive got a small shaker fuel pump for a lift pump and it works great for priming the fuel pump, but it wont prime the injectors.

[maxfax]

Interesting concept..   But The Road raging rabbit has it..    Now if you were to say somehow route the return line from the pump in some way that it could exchange some heat to the lines and injectors you may have something..  But getting enough heat transferred woudl be the trickey part..   Lots of insulation on the fuel lines, filter, and tank woudl help..    How are you planning to heat the oil??? BLock heater or some variety of element in the tank???

[CathodeRayTube]

I do not actually have the engine yet or the pump so i havent been able to take things apart and figure out how things actually work...we have an 81 rabbit, but my father drives it all the time so i cant do much other than open the hood and examine everything. My project is swapping a 1.6 VW TD into a Toyota Tercel 4WD station wagon.

but anyway after reading the first reply from Rabbit on Roids i think im going to use my electric pump/heater for priming the pump itself...and then possibly wrapping the injector lines with electric heating element wire to heat them as well...the before-pump heater i plan to construct using a 12v hot-water heater element. I also thought about just running a high current thru the injector lines themselves wich would cause them to act like heating elements and get hot...but i think that would be hard on them and would also be hard to accomplish because of electrical insulation issues...

[maxfax]

My project is swapping a 1.6 VW TD into a Toyota Tercel 4WD station wagon.

Neat!!!

plan to construct using a 12v hot-water heater element. I also thought about just running a high current thru the injector lines themselves wich would cause them to act like heating elements and get hot...but i think that would be hard on them and would also be hard to accomplish because of electrical insulation issues...

You're also gonna need plenty of alternator and battery to supply enough juice..  You're gonna need some way to plug it in when it's not running if it's going to sit any length of time..   You may be better off with 120v ac heating when it's sitting, and using dc heating as a supplement to using hot coolant while running.. EVen then it's tough to keep the engine at operating temp..  Not only do you need the WVO to be around 170 deg F so that it sprays properly, but the engine needs to be at operating temp to prevent the wvo from essentually burning fast to the pre cups, and pistons.. 

It's a bit more work, but you'd be best off fabricating a 2 tank system..   THe lovely PA weather is a tad unpredictable, and crap happens..  It's nice to have some diesel to fall back on...    Some have been fine with single tank setups, and in a warmer mor predicable climate it would probably work... But, with a 4x4 Tercel wagon I would hope you plant to take it out to play in the snow 

[SolarSteve]

You are leaving half of the problem out of the equation.  Yes hot VO is necessary, but the engine must be hot as well before injecting the VO otherwise you will get ring land coking and then loss of compression.  And VO must be a minimum of 150F before injecting it for it to burn properly.

Try to look at it this way.  If you put a small amount of VO in a cold pan and set the pan on the stove and turn on the heat, the VO will eventually smoke and burn and will leave a carbony sticky mess behind, i.e. your cylinder walls by running VO in a cold engine.  Now take the same pan (cleaned) and heat it to 400F and then pour in the same amount of VO.  It too will smoke and burn but after the VO is gone the pan will be clean.

Good to this site and just read for a while.  http://www.frybrid.com/forum/index.php

I am not affiliated with Frybrid but I do own and use one of thier kits and it works flawlessly.  If you do your homework you will realize that it is a much better use of your time and money to buy thier proven kit.  It is possible to build your own kit, but there is much room for ruining a motor that way than to use a time tested kit.

[maxfax]

^^^ WHat he said!

I pretty much ripped off greasecar and frybrid's setups on both my cars..  No problems yet, other than the silver bunny is a cold blooded _____!  If I knew where I put them I'd share some nasty pics of WVO gone wrong...

[macka]

you can use photobucket to host the pics, then link them to the site

[Rabbit on Roids]

You are leaving half of the problem out of the equation.  Yes hot VO is necessary, but the engine must be hot as well before injecting the VO otherwise you will get ring land coking and then loss of compression.  And VO must be a minimum of 150F before injecting it for it to burn properly.

Try to look at it this way.  If you put a small amount of VO in a cold pan and set the pan on the stove and turn on the heat, the VO will eventually smoke and burn and will leave a carbony sticky mess behind, i.e. your cylinder walls by running VO in a cold engine.  Now take the same pan (cleaned) and heat it to 400F and then pour in the same amount of VO.  It too will smoke and burn but after the VO is gone the pan will be clean.

Good to this site and just read for a while.  http://www.frybrid.com/forum/index.php

I am not affiliated with Frybrid but I do own and use one of thier kits and it works flawlessly.  If you do your homework you will realize that it is a much better use of your time and money to buy thier proven kit.  It is possible to build your own kit, but there is much room for ruining a motor that way than to use a time tested kit.

^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.

[conor]

I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system

...yeah, what everyone else said... There's no good way to run veg in a one-tank kit with unheated engine. The OM603 mercedes engine can certainly take it for a while (they'll run on near anything), but with a cold engine you'll run into problems with rings sticking, loss of compression, dilution of the crankcase oil, incomplete combustion, etc. The wear is almost always during starting, not during regular running. I don't have any pics, but just finished rebuilding a 1.6 that was single-tanked for 10k miles until it wouldn't start any more(it needed everything). SolarSteve is right about the hot engine and the pan example, except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).

how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?

^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.

...yeah, i'll bet the rings are junk. You may be able to re-ring and get a little more life out of it...

[SolarSteve]

test

[SolarSteve]

Sorry about my previous "test" post, I'm having issues posting.

except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).

You're biased towards Greasecar and you live in Mass, NO WAY!!

Frybrid or Greasecar, both will be lightyears better than running VO in a cold motor.  I believe the Frybrid system is a better system, but I won't debate that on this thread.

[Rabbit on Roids]

I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system

...yeah, what everyone else said... There's no good way to run veg in a one-tank kit with unheated engine. The OM603 mercedes engine can certainly take it for a while (they'll run on near anything), but with a cold engine you'll run into problems with rings sticking, loss of compression, dilution of the crankcase oil, incomplete combustion, etc. The wear is almost always during starting, not during regular running. I don't have any pics, but just finished rebuilding a 1.6 that was single-tanked for 10k miles until it wouldn't start any more(it needed everything). SolarSteve is right about the hot engine and the pan example, except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).

how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?

^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.

...yeah, i'll bet the rings are junk. You may be able to re-ring and get a little more life out of it...

nah, its toast, its addicted to ether. it needs to be bored and gone through. its got 150k mi on it. if its too cold out, it wont start. period.

[CathodeRayTube]

how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?

I had planned to have a custom adapter plate and engine mounts made. i may end up having to have a custom oil pan built also because the tercels frony diff is part of the tranny and the engine sits on top of it.

so far from what iv heard right here i think its still definitly a worthwhile project dispite the new supposed setbacks...

so your saying that even if the grease is heated to around 150f min (i was actually planning to shoot for more like 200+) in the injector lines and the entire rest of the fuel system before the engine is even started, it will still harm the inside of the engine because the engine itself/cylender walls etc are still cold and the grease will stick to it and not burn right? even if the grease itself is up to proper temp immediately before it hits the injectors?

my other "big idea" was to build an on bored pumping/filtering system that would allow pumping directly from a restaurants barrel into the fuel tank...complete with water sensors and filtering down to 1 micron...or should i largely forget this as well? i haven't thought much about dewatering other than how to avoid/filter out large amounts of that may be present at the bottom of a grease barrel.


i suppose it wouldnt be the end of the world if i have to start on DD/BD and then switch to WVO/WMO after the engine warms up...alltho i would love to be able to run 100% oil all the time from cold start if it can be done at all without harming/risking anything...regardless of how complex the heating system has to be to accomplish this...

I appreciate all the advice and replys so far, id much rather somebody tell me certen things are good/bad ideas before i waste any time/money on somthing that wont turn out well...

[SolarSteve]

Going dumpster to tank, no matter how many filters and "water blocking" filters won't work.

First and foremost you need to buy the book SVO by Forest Gregg, its about $15 and you can get it on Amazon.  There is A LOT you need to learn about running VO in a diesel.  You can't just filter it down to 1 micron and call it good.  There is emulsified water, water on a molecular level that attaches itself to the VO molecules that needs to be removed and no water blocking filter will remove it.  I can explain all of this in great detail if you wish, but briefly, you need to set up a good filteration/de-watering set-up and start producing clean, dry oil and test it to be sure, before getting to far with your kit. 

I'm telling you, go to the Frybrid site and just READ.  You don't need to become a member on the forum or buy anything, just read.  You will learn volumes in how to do this properly and how to build your own filtration system.  I built mine for less than $150.  If you try to run VO in a cold engine, VO below 150F, don't dewater properly or filter you WILL ruin your engine.

I have a 1991 Jetta 1.6L N/A that I have been running VO in for about 20K and a little over 1 year.  In that 20K, I fill about 5 times a year.  If you are going to build your own system, build a 2 tank system and start and shut down on diesel.

WHAT I AM TELLING YOU WILL SAVE YOUR ENGINE FROM A VERY EARLY DEATH, I AM NOT TRYING TO SCARE YOU, ONLY INFORM YOU!