Sounds like tappet / lifter clacking

[smutts]

  Well the Blue GTD is behaving itselkf after the new head gasket. So it has FINALLY stopped raining, and so I am doing the ladyfriends transport, the Red GTD.

For years there has been a slight tappet (lifter?) noise for ages, but not enough for me to bother banging the camwheel off and yanking the camshaft to have a look.
Just recently it has decided to turn into a loud clacking, this clack doesn't quieten much when I cut the fuel when driving, so not an injector thinks I.

So failed hydraulic tappet is my thinking, if the little spring inside the tappet fails, then it won't pump up, and so that should cause the clack as the cam lobe has a nice gap to get up to speed and smack the tappet. That was the theory, but they all seem fine , but I have three that look as though they have not been rotating properly and are unevenly worn, could this be causing the noise?

Engine is in bits, Any other ideas?

[smutts]

Also I have a set of tappets with far less wear from an old gasser, same tappet though, the common dogma is that that mismatched cam and tappets will destroy each other, or if I use them, assembly lube them, and run at 2000 rpm for a minimum of 20 minutes like a new cam and tappets will they kiss and make up? Or will I just get a bigger bang and better photos to post for your pleasures . Any thoughts?

[Rabbit TD]

Also I have a set of tappets with far less wear from an old gasser, same tappet though, the common dogma is that that mismatched cam and tappets will destroy each other, or if I use them, assembly lube them, and run at 2000 rpm for a minimum of 20 minutes like a new cam and tappets will they kiss and make up? Or will I just get a bigger bang and better photos to post for your pleasures . Any thoughts?

I think you will be fine using them with no problem.  Look at how the mechanical lifter engines are, every time a valve is adjusted with a new shim there is a different surface for the cam to run on and we don't have any problems and they rotate anyway.  I think as long as you have oil to them things will be fine.  The pictures would have been nice though

[smutts]

  Hmm, photographic horrors? The best I can do is of my suicide rivet grenaded 020 gearbox.

[burn_your_money]

Yes please

Sorry I have nothing useful to add

[smutts]

 >:(Okay, I am now stressed, perfect s h one tee fight putting the cam back on, previous owner was a muppet with anything mechanical, lots of neandertal spannering. So a cam stud pulled out at 15lbft great says I, helicoil kit at the ready left over from the last time I did the head gasket on this engine 50k ago (two cam studs that time ) Hoovering by the ladyfriend to catch the errant swarf as I drill and tap the poxy thing, then insert the helicoils, eventually after mucho swearing. More swearing as I forgot about the studs need a thread ten mill ish below the cap else they won't set down deep enough. Carefully wind out one helicoil and keep fingers crossed as I try again. 15lbft and success. The pulled thread unwound off the stud perfectly so one photo of an aluminium helicoil coming up.
Drat! just found the plastic oil deflector that sits over the cam, well it didn't run away on the test drive, so some luck there?

Well to the point, one clacking engine still clacks exactly the same as before.
Clack doesn't get worse with changing load.
Sounds like a dead cam tappet/lifter, one good set of tappets fitted, still sounds like a dead tappet/ lifter.
Dead injector? cut the "ignition" whilst travelling, still clacking. So nix that.
Dead little end? Sound is at half engine speed, so doubt it, changing engine load makes no difference.
Dead oil feed to one tappet, uhoh, didn't check that whilst the engine was apart, but whilst dismantling, none of the old tappets were sitting lower as if they hadn't been pumped up, this is what worried me earlier when I expected to find one knackered tappet.
Er, HELP!!!!!  

[Rabbit TD]

>:(Okay, I am now stressed, perfect s h one tee fight putting the cam back on, previous owner was a muppet with anything mechanical, lots of neandertal spannering. So a cam stud pulled out at 15lbft great says I, helicoil kit at the ready left over from the last time I did the head gasket on this engine 50k ago (two cam studs that time ) Hoovering by the ladyfriend to catch the errant swarf as I drill and tap the poxy thing, then insert the helicoils, eventually after mucho swearing. More swearing as I forgot about the studs need a thread ten mill ish below the cap else they won't set down deep enough. Carefully wind out one helicoil and keep fingers crossed as I try again. 15lbft and success. The pulled thread unwound off the stud perfectly so one photo of an aluminium helicoil coming up.
Drat! just found the plastic oil deflector that sits over the cam, well it didn't run away on the test drive, so some luck there?

Well to the point, one clacking engine still clacks exactly the same as before.
Clack doesn't get worse with changing load.
Sounds like a dead cam tappet/lifter, one good set of tappets fitted, still sounds like a dead tappet/ lifter.
Dead injector? cut the "ignition" whilst travelling, still clacking. So nix that.
Dead little end? Sound is at half engine speed, so doubt it, changing engine load makes no difference.
Dead oil feed to one tappet, uhoh, didn't check that whilst the engine was apart, but whilst dismantling, none of the old tappets were sitting lower as if they hadn't been pumped up, this is what worried me earlier when I expected to find one knackered tappet.
Er, HELP!!!!!  

You don't by chance have a broken valve spring do you   P.S., I know the feeling when yo see the oil deflector laying somewhere after it's all put back together trying the best you can to eliminate valve cover leaks.

[rabbitman]

Sounds like a lot of messin' around.......how's yer oil pressure?

[smutts]

how's yer oil pressure?

I've never dared to look!   Never been any issues with oil pressure while HOT and idling.

broken valve spring

Bugger, I didn't look, whilst I had the chance,   possible, but nothing looked strange when I took all the tappets out, no shrapnel or anything, no odd taps or clunks when hand turning the crank while checking the cam timing.

What does a dead little end (wrist pin?) sound like? As my thinking is that the piston might only flop across the gap of a knackered little end whilst at exhaust and intake top dead centre, the bearing staying loaded during compression and power top dead centre. So only clacking at every two rotations like a cam would?
This is the first time in many years a sound has me beat.

Thanks for the input guys,

[maxfax]

What a fun turn of events you are having..  or not..

I woudl think a broken valve spring woudl cause a misfire on that cylinder due to the valve not sealing properly, but then again stranger things have happened..   Checking the oil pressure sounds liek the best place to start IMHO..

Generally a wrist pin clacks at a rate closer to the engine rpms..   But now for a similar story on a non related engine...  I believe it was a 400 cid Ford v8 that had a clacky noise..  Several people diagnosed it as a lifter, me included..   A new cam and lifters later it still had a rather unpleasant tap tap tap..   Interestingly enough someone had the sense to start pulling plug wires off a cylinder at a time untill the noise went away...   Turned out to be a crack in the piston starting at the wrist pin hole, and ending at the bottom of the piston skirt..   It would only tap when the combustion happened...

[clbanman]

Had a Ford 2.3 making similar noises.  Turned out to be missing piston skirts.  They were all in the bottom of the oil pan.

[smutts]

Here goes,

Just checking for little end (wrist pin), by easing each of the injector unions, no difference in clack.  no difference with or without load, it's at half engine speed, so I am crossing little ends off the suspects list.

So, I will slip the cambelt off this weekend and hand turn the camshaft, a weak or broken valve spring should be easy to feel for. Probably.

As I've got to take the cam cover off to put the plastic oil catcher back in, then I will have a closer look. One test that might work is to run the engine with the cover off, and watch (from the side as I pollute the nieghbourhood with CG-4 black rain  ) My theory is that working hydraulic tappets will snug up to the heel of the cam and wipe the oil to a thin smear. A knackered one will leave a thick smear of the black stuff over the cam heel. This should be obvious when its spinning. Well that is the theory. I will film it and share it when eventually I work out how to post it.

Or is it simply a knackered cam shaft. I looked carefully, no spalling, roughness or (obvious!) wear. Did I miss something?

Blocked oil feed to one of the tappets? Uh Oh, this is probably where it is going.

On the bright side my hearing loss is developing nicely, so this might be moot in a year or ten.

Thanks for still reading of this little patch of Devon where my neighbours just don't get it.

[LoneWolf]

Running it without the plastic splash guard in the rocker cover does make any ticking sound alot louder. Have you got and under bonnet sound deadening?

[rabbitman]

Come to think of it, my Dad's got an '86 golf gasser 1.8 that started ticking about 5 years ago. At first it would go away when revved then that stopped fixing it so he put new lifters in and no dice. Next came lower rod bearings, still ticking.

We gave up and have been driving it ever since, it clacks REAL bad when cold and gets better hot but we've never been able to find the problem.

[smutts]

 

knackered cam shaft

new camshaft for £34 on fleabay, well its cheap compared to white diesel here at £54 a tankfull, fingers crossed.

This is the first time I have ever done a blind fit bits and hope, well here goes.