How to verify between mk1 and mk2 TD Down Pipes ?

[Baron VonZeppelin]

I'm fairly up to par on NA 1.6
But now progessing into some 1.6TD hardware.

Recently picked up an 81 Truck with TD, an 85 TD Jetta, and a complete 86 TD engine (all in about a 30 day spread). There was also an 82 NA Truck and another 89 NA Jetta that also came to the fleet in that same time frame.

Things went from 1 VW Diesel to 5 real quick all of a sudden.

I bought two cast iron mk1 DownPipes from members on Vortex.
Because I think i'm going to put the 86TD into the 82 Truck.
Both were good deals and good shape so bought them both to have a spare.

Thanks to a thread in the for sale section - have realized now i'm confused/wondering what i really bought - or really have.

The two recently purchased DownPipes look very very similar to each other, could say exact - but not going to say that yet.

So then today i check my 85 TD Jetta, and that DownPipe looks like the 2 that i bought ?

Then check the 81 TD Truck, and that Dpipe looks like them also ?
It had been my understanding an mk2 Dpipe won't work in an mk1 ?

So now i'm all confused about what the he[[

The spare 86 TD engine is packed back right now and can't get to it to examine its Dpipe very easily. I have a pic from the for sale listing, but its not a great shot. And at first i thought the air snorkel tube was the Dpipe, is what started this in the first place. Kind of good that happened.

Can anyone post pix and/or part numbers for the mk1 and mk2 Dpipes to help me get a grip ? Or give some descriptions in the difference.

Anything will help.
And i really appreciate it too.

[Powered by Spearco]

Try looking for the part numbers. The MK1 has 171 xxx xxx and the MK2 has 191 xxx xxx.
The MK2 down pipe will fit in a MK1 chassis. You need to modify your shift linkage though.
Good luck  .

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Thank You Spearco.
^5

If you put the two side by side - flange by flange - with flanges towards you, one way they almost seem the same. One seems a tad bit shorter.

If you put them side by side - the other way - with the shorter seeming one on the left side of the comparison now - it is quite a bit shorter. At least an inch shorter on collector position.

The shorter one "looks" to be 191 233 805. The casting is not very smooth at all on the exterior. Not rust pitting - rough casting mold.
Near the flange it has HJK.

The longer one "looks to be FGG 171 253 805. The casting is much smoother (almost very smooth) and the ID numbers/letters much crisper.
Near the flange it has 2859 (maybe casting date - over counter replacement?)
+GF+ 190145 (or 190146)

On my 81 Truck, the head pipe - right below where it meets collector, is almost right up against the shifter relay shaft bracket (5spd). Maybe even lightly touching it. The guy i bought it from 'thought' the engine was from an 83-84 Jetta. But it was that way when he bought it. It was a factory Diesel Truck by sticker on passenger wheel apron and driver door jamb. Has cold start, Gplug cluster, big hole tank filler, etc...
I've tried to verify block code (CY or MF) - but can't get my eye on it well enough due to gizmos in the way.

Any other visible particulars that might ID between mk1 engine and mk2 engine ?

I'm not a disgruntled buyer in any way really on the Dpipes, so long as they are mk1 or mk2 pieces. But would be happier if they were both mk1.

Further comments/observations/etc... welcomed also.

[Powered by Spearco]

Other difference's would be, I THINK. on the cylinder head, belt side. there is a metal ring/ bracket, that would be used to lift the engine out. If it is a MK1, it would have "two" bolts securing it to the head. Now if its a MK2, the mount would have "one" bolt and an alginement pin where the other bolt would be.
Don't quote me but that might be a clue as to what engine it is. Also, if no one has messed with the engine or pump to much. The injection pump mounting bolts would have a connecting metal brace between the two back bolts, and or the timming belt cover would be a two piece, metal backing and plastic cover for the MK2's. Most of the coolant flange's are metal on the MK1. MK2 would have plastic ones.
Hope that helps.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Heck yeh Great info
Thanks again Spearco

I'll check for those engine features this weekend.

The way the headpipe is up close to the relay bracket makes me think at minumum its not an A1 DownPipe on the Truck. but...will try to check its number now that i know which is what.

I'm hoping it is an A1 engine to stay within the vintage. 
But no disgrace either way.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

And i'll try to get some pix shot this weekend of the two different Dpipes i have on hand. Might be good to have them on this thread.

Maybe can email them to someone and have them post them to a hostlink.
My ISP is 14.4kbps and pbucket etc, is not a good jive with it at all.

[fatmobile]

I had a picture in my image shack but it's an x now and doesn't show up in the earlier post on this topic.
 If you look down the flange, it will line up with one side of the pipe where it connects to the toilet bowl.
 If it lines up with the drivers side of the pipe, the pipe is moved to the right,.. so it must be a A1 pipe. It's longer and moved to the passenger side to clear the shift arm.
 If the flange is lined up with the passenger side of the pipe as it enters the toilet bowl, the pipe is moved more toward the drivers side, it's an A2 pipe.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Appreciate that tip Fmobile.
I got them out and looked at that, and see what you mean.

If down section lines up to the "shorter" side of the flange, its an A2/Mk2

If it lines up to the "longer" side of the flange, its an A1/Mk1

================================

I also noticed too, that the cast bolt hole bosses for the lower brace/bracket are a dead easy giveaway between Mk1 and Mk2 units.

And would be easy to distinguish from most all camera angles that might be given in a general "For Sale" offering picture.

On Mk2 they are cast right on top of the ears for the lower exhaust clamp.

On Mk1 there is about 1 to 1 and 1/2 inches space between the bolt hole bosses and the ears for the lower exhaust clamp.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Checked into the engine stuff on my 81 Truck today.
Unexpected displeasurable results.

With more determination than i had the first time i tried to check block code, I went back after it this time with some untensils and a stronger light.

I was hoping for CY code - or at least MF -
its a damn CR code.
80-81 1.6 NA 11mm engine, from the info source i'm using.

Unless someone has info that shows CR as otherwise ??

So its probly the original engine with an MK2 TD conversion/makeover put on it.
Ah well, still okay for something else later on.
 

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Spearco,

I did check over the things you listed, and some other stuff.
Thats what got me fired up more about getting the visual on the block code.
Wanted that verdict.

The flanges were metal.

The pull loop has 1 bolt going through frontwards and 1 bolt going in rearwards.
The InjPump has a bracket between 2 bolts on the front of the Inj Pump (pulley end). Might not be the one you mean though.
But checked/compared to my White 89 bonestocker and it has those same 2 features. And you didn't say those things were for sure anyhow.

The timing cover seems to be a trimmed plastic Mk2 unit.
The DownPipe is Mk2.
They modified the head pipe by just splicing it and adding about 2 inches to it between the collector and the bottom bend/turn.

To an untrained eye, you'd think it was a complete drop-in engine installation switch someone had done. Its all there at least.

But if its an 11mm engine and no piston squirters, I'm going to freshen the 86 TD engine and put it in there instead, eventually.

[Powered by Spearco]

Sounds like you figured it out  . I have used the MK2 cast down pipe on a MK1 convertion and had to modify the shift linkage. Not hard but you'll need a welder to do so.


Yah, I know. The crapy welding, but it moved the arm away far enough for it not to interfear with the MK2 downpipe.
Also needed modiying is the connecting rod. Cut out what is needed to make it work, by selecting the trans in neutral and the modifed lever in the neutral position and mark it.
Also make sure all eng. and trans mounts are good and not worn.

About the eng. code being an 11mm head bolt 1.6L, you could just add an oil cooler and an oil temp. gauge to monitor them, and of course an EGT thermalcouple and gauge too. I think some people have done so and have had good results.
Good luck.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

I bought the 81 Truck at a price where i couldn't get hurt.
But finding out its not true TD engine bums me down some.
11mm bums me even more.

It has the largest/wildest fiberglass camper shell i have ever seen on a VW Truck.
No telling how much it weighs. It looks like Battleship Galactica.
And i like it !
Its a genuine article that fits the Truck perfect.
It overlaps the roof and the cab pillars with a nice snug fit.

This one is going to be my workhorse. I think i can even haul my Harley in the back of it under the shell. So want it to be strong puller and handle its biscuits and gravy real good.

I bought the 86TD engine first, decided to find a Truck to put it in.
Then the 81 pops up local, and had a "TD" already in it.
Then found the 82 Truck, so bought it for the 86TD engine to go in.

Plans have changed some now. But not doing anything right away just yet.
Other things more pressing.

I want the 81 truck to be full TD with squirters, 12mm head studs and metal headgasket.
And then some power mods.

The 82 has a regular box camper shell. Its coming off and going nudie.
And then i'll put this TD exterior equipment on that engine.
Unless its 11mm also.
If its 11mm, i'll just swap this complete 11mm CR into it, with a mk1 Dpipe.
The 82 won't be used for heavy hauling.

[Quantum TD]

Slap the turbo on the CR, and blow it up. Get a first-hand feel for the amount of boost and EGTs you can push.

P.S. If anyone has a pic of the 2 downpipes side-by-side, that would be a good reference.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

Ouch Quantum !! lol I'm not that pissed off yet.
But that would be fun, in a twisted way.

The CR engine already has the full turbo set-up on it, in the 81 Truck with the big camper shell.

Dunno how long its been that way. Previous owner had it 5 years, and it was already like that when he bought it.

I'm definitely gonna get some pix of the MK1 - MK2 Dpipes together in various poses to put on this thread.

Its too easy to be mislead when neither the buyer or the seller really knows the specifics, or what to ask, or what to look for.

The guy i bought the mk2 Dpipe from (that was supposed to be mk1) - had bought it from another Vortexer a couple years earlier - as an mk1 Dpipe. It was for his Rabbit TD project that never materialized. He sold off his pieces individually on Vtex. He wasn't trying to shet me. He trusted his sellers description/listing, and i trusted his. He had a picture posted too.

To quote The Who - won't be fooled again.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

I have the digital pictures ready.
Have solicited a couple members to see if they can post them to a Pbucket link.

Anyone care to volunteer ?
I can email them to someone ....

If all else fails, i can try uploading them to a memory flash stick and going to the library and using their Hi Speed internet to get a Pbucket going and upload them that way. If they allow that kind of thing at the library. idunno