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engine swap... by motörhead on 07 Aug, 2009 02:58
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Though it is a bit more-often mentioned on tdiclub, it seems slightly less common here...in looking at engine swaps for my toyota 4x4s, I came across several options, most of which I discarded fairly quickly. One I couldn't ignore, and that I am currently (read: slowly) working on is a supra 7m-series (NA in my case) 3.0 6cylinder. It's bolt-in with the right combination and all seemed well until gas climbed over 1.30l here in eastern Ontario. That got me into diesels, and after much clicking, came across Spaulen81 on tdiclub, who could pull a car on a dolly uphill at 70mph, and get 30mpg unloaded with 31" tires. I was sold, however the complexity and inital expense of a tdi swap was a bit daunting. I then came across this: http://www.yotatech.com/f162/vw-diesel-build-up-135203/.
Flash319, who put the 1.9 in his truck eventually took it out and put a 22re back in, citing cold start issues...on a whim, I bought all his conversion pieces, and so the mechanical part of a swap would be fairly easy.
I'm not interested in spinning a diesel to 6-7k, so I don't think a 1.6 would be a good candidate, but what about pumping up a 1.9 into the 170ftlb-or-better range? From what I have read here, a good place to start would be to use parts from a 1.6 injection pump and a larger turbo, along with an intercooler...these last two I have some experience with, as I have been into 80s turbo dodges for some time.
This rig would be a DD year-round, expected to start in -20C (can't plug it in a work), take the odd load of wood, and pull a small pop-up camper behind it on occasion. Is this possible, or should I be girding myself for battle with tdi wiring?
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#1 by Rabbit on Roids on 07 Aug, 2009 10:13
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put a 2.0 audi TD in there. thats what im gonna do to my 4runner most likely. i got an 88 to work with tho. and the audi is an 83.
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#2 by arb on 07 Aug, 2009 19:57
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My other DD is a Rubicon http://www.jeep.com/hostc/bmo/models.do?modelYearCode=CUJ200906&llp=2TR&ccode=CUJ200906JKJS72A I bought the first year (I was at their HQ at the time) - I _will_ still swap a diesel into it (I'll use the 2.8L VM Motori engine they put in the Liberty so it will bolt right up to the manual trans I have)
BUT, my other DD is a 1.6 NA converter to TD that I put in a Dodge caravan. Yes, it took a lot of engineering and work, plus about $1000 over time, but I pull a camper with it and it is worth every bit. When I wear out this Virginia (Michigan winters are hell on cars) body I'll swap the manual rack & pinion and the TD into a newer caravan :-) http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15633.0
Go for the 1.6 TD swap. You will be happy with this pure mechanical diesel engine. It has the torque for your needs. The engine ONLY needs 12v to the fuel cut-off solenoid for the engine to run.... so it will be VERY easy to integrate from a systems point of view. You'll want to "Pimp your glow plugs" though. -
#3 by burnt_servo on 08 Aug, 2009 01:24
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i've helped my little brother do a diesel conversion with his samurai.
we put a mildly worked over 1.6 td in there . right now he is having trouble keeping a transmision behind the motor .
he wore out 2 samurai tranny's , and in the last couple of months he has killed off a newer sidekick tranny and finally broke down and bought a toyota tranny to install .
it already has toyota truck axles , the stock ones also where not up to the task of all the torque from the little diesel .
he also had to go with a aftermarket pressure plate and disk as new stock pieces where not able to hold the engine either after awhile .
point being , i think the vw diesel engine would be perfectly suited to a small 4x4 like the toyota truck ....... BUT only if it has been " hot rodded " into the 150 hp range . a stock engine would utterly suck trying to pull around all that weight . -
#4 by motörhead on 08 Aug, 2009 06:35
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ARB, your conversion also interested me, in that I currenly have a 90 caravan from down south that came with and still has a 2.5 turbo engine in it...plans include a manual trans (have everything already) and a built 2.5 running 72lb injectors and about 25psi of boost.
The consensus seems to be that a 1.6 would be adequate for my needs, especially after reading ARBs thread...I have access to a free 1.6 right now as a core (sitting in the back of a van with no oil pan on it, so definitely in need of a rebuild). I will make plans to acquire it and then start collecting bearings, oil pump, etc., and then see what the bores look like when I get the slugs out of it. I have several intercoolers from old TDs, as well as an SRT, turbo Sprint, talon and volvo, so that area is well covered. I also have a few garret t3s from TDs around, so I'd be looking for specs (AR, trim, etc) on a stock 1.6 turbo to compare with.
burnt_servo, you mention hopping the motor up to the 150hp range...what does that involve? Keep in mind that other than understanding the diesel process for combustion, and what I have seen on the web, I have no real experience with diesel mills...built 350s, and changed several major and minor components on turbo dodges and toyotas, but this is a foray into uncharted waters for me...one of the things I have seen is that there can be interference with the exhaust/turbo and the toyota starter; in that I will have a north/south orientation, would using weld els (http://sdsefi.com/techheader.htm) to fab a header be of value? I notice that few have gone this route, likely due to the exhaust being on the back, although the TD crew has had a few people step up in this manner...
Any other opinions, or general discussion on this swap, especially in the areas of cold starting without always being able to plug in the truck would be appreciated/welcome.
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#5 by maxfax on 08 Aug, 2009 07:30
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Any other opinions, or general discussion on this swap, especially in the areas of cold starting without always being able to plug in the truck would be appreciated/welcome.
A healthy engine (good compression), starter & battery.. Some Bosch duratherm glow plugs, and the timing set dead on I was able to get mine going down to -12F (about -25C ?) .. It didn;t sound too happy but it started.. Dunno how ell it woudl do in colder temps, that oppertunity has not presented itself yet..
There would be the option of 12v fuel heaters although these are geared moreso towards keeping the fuel warm and preventing it from gelling.. I think you're gonna need some crazy battery power to operate one of these long enough to be effective, of course there could be somthign out there that I am not aware of..
There has also been some discussion of intake air heaters (similar to what is used on the Cummins)... That may be your best bet in conjunction with the glow plugs..
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#6 by jtanguay on 08 Aug, 2009 10:54
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There has also been some discussion of intake air heaters (similar to what is used on the Cummins)... That may be your best bet in conjunction with the glow plugs..
this would be well suited for someone running a large vehicle like a van or just want a backup plan if they live in a cold region with a car that doesn't like to start so well in the cold. i would recommend having a deep cycle battery in the trunk with an isolator to work the intake heater or as a backup source of power should the main battery drain. -
#7 by burnt_servo on 08 Aug, 2009 11:02
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burnt_servo, you mention hopping the motor up to the 150hp range...what does that involve?
arp head studs , arp main bolts , 1.9 idi steel shim head gasket , ported head , k24 turbo with a 3 inch exhaust , blocked off pop valve on intake , bocked off waste gate , heavily ground fuel cone , new injector tips , modifyed governor springs so it defuels around 5500 - 6000 rpm , intercooler and finally new bearings and a 36mm oilpump .
here's a nugget of info if you port the head , looking from the piston side of the head , down into the intake port , you will notice that one side of the port roof is higher than the other side ......
DO NOT touch the low side of the port , just work over the high side .
the idea from vw is to have the air swirling as it enters the cylinder , and this swirling motion will rapidly speed up how fast the diesel burns when injected .
something i haven't done yet , but plan too , build a windage screen and oil scrapers , and polish the throws of the crank , and conrods . this will help pull oil off of the crank faster and help deflate the oil mist rotating around the crank as it turns .
on a 360 chrysler this is worth like 40 free hp ,even if it was only worth 10 hp , i think it would still be worth the time and effort on a vw . -
#8 by theman53 on 08 Aug, 2009 16:50
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I was just about like you as far as the gasser experience. The biggest deal is the crank, cam, pump timing. I ruined my first head I ever worked on because I was off a little more than a tooth and bent every valve in the head. It was a bad day for me but I have never forgotten. I am sure you already knew, but to save somebody else when they ask that question I always give that answer.
Other than that have fun and enjoy. Listen to everybody on here...but me
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#9 by 8v-of-fury on 08 Aug, 2009 16:59
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Other than that have fun and enjoy. Listen to everybody on here...but me
I listened to Lucas once, woke up 40 miles from home in a corn field...
only joking, Lucas has Mad Skilllage!
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#10 by Rabbit on Roids on 09 Aug, 2009 11:05
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seriously tho, i have a 2.0 5 cylinder TD engine. im going to put it in a toyota. its only 1 inch longer than a fully dressed 22r. and the flywheel has 8 bolts holding it on, same with the V6 toyota.. take and use that trans and clutch/flywheel. a 2.0 will make more power than a 1.6.
i think a 4000 pound toyota would be severely underpowered with a 1.6 engine. they were build to go into 2000 pound cars, not 4000 pound trucks. sure dillenger1 put one in his single cab, but there isnt much truck there, but its still over 3000 pounds. -
#11 by motörhead on 09 Aug, 2009 14:42
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burnt_servo, idoes that list of mods/parts reside in the engine in the Zuk you mentioned earlier? With fuel coming out at 5500 or so, am I to expect to be revving a 1.6 to those levels to get the torque figures I'm looking for or am I misunderstanding the terminology? I had thought that the torque peak may come around 3k or less; 3k is roughly where the 22re is with 4.10s and 31" tires at 70mph on the highway. If the 1.6 needs to wound that tight to make torque, would not a 1.9 with the associated 1.6 IP parts (read a few threads about hybrid pumps) make more sense? Not trying to rock anyone's boat, but the rpm range seems very gasser-like, and that really has me scratching my head with the knowledge of diesels that I have at the moment...
Also, would you have specs on the k24 turbo?
Here's what I have in stock at the moment:
Garret T03
Compressor housing A/R .42
Exhaust housing A/R .48
Compressor inducer 42 mm
Compressor exducer 60 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 48 mm
Can get quite inexpensively:
TEO4H
Compressor housing A/R small
Exhaust housing A/R smaller
Compressor inducer 38 mm
Compressor exducer 53 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 51 mm
(courtesy of Gary Donovan @ thedodgegarage.com)
Thanks -
#12 by burnt_servo on 17 Aug, 2009 05:13
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no ... the 1.6 doesnt need to be wound out tight to make power , the second the turbo starts to spool you have tons of torque on hand .
a person could easily short shift it and never need to take it past 3000 rpm .... ever ...... but wind it out past 5000 rpm and hang on , because it takes on an entirely different personality .
modding the govenor so the engine pulls more rpm before it defuels helps alot when you need to pass someone , accelerate quickly or your just trying to make it through a mudhole that wants to eat you alive .
the k24 is just the standard vw turbo , except the exhaust side was smoothened out and polished and it dumps straight into a full 3 inch exhaust .
the other thing is playing with the fuel cone , i've found one of the best curves to grind into the cone is one that dumps little amounts of fuel in a low boost , but as soon as the engine see's around 10 psi , fuel starts to get dumped in and things take right off .burnt_servo, idoes that list of mods/parts reside in the engine in the Zuk you mentioned earlier? With fuel coming out at 5500 or so, am I to expect to be revving a 1.6 to those levels to get the torque figures I'm looking for or am I misunderstanding the terminology? I had thought that the torque peak may come around 3k or less; 3k is roughly where the 22re is with 4.10s and 31" tires at 70mph on the highway. If the 1.6 needs to wound that tight to make torque, would not a 1.9 with the associated 1.6 IP parts (read a few threads about hybrid pumps) make more sense? Not trying to rock anyone's boat, but the rpm range seems very gasser-like, and that really has me scratching my head with the knowledge of diesels that I have at the moment...
Also, would you have specs on the k24 turbo?
Here's what I have in stock at the moment:
Garret T03
Compressor housing A/R .42
Exhaust housing A/R .48
Compressor inducer 42 mm
Compressor exducer 60 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 48 mm
Can get quite inexpensively:
TEO4H
Compressor housing A/R small
Exhaust housing A/R smaller
Compressor inducer 38 mm
Compressor exducer 53 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 51 mm
(courtesy of Gary Donovan @ thedodgegarage.com)
Thanks -
#13 by motörhead on 31 Aug, 2009 10:04
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I may have a further complication to the swap...the test "mule" is an automatic 22re. Because the motor was so gutless, and because the tranny sucks up so much power, they put steeper gears in the diffs. A normal manual-tranny 22re (which will be behind the 1.6 as part of the swap) came with 4.10s; the auto truck that I have has 4.30 diffs. In a decent headwind, I can leave my foot on the floor and not get pulled over for speeding, and I have yet to find a vehicle I can out-accelerate off the line if the other driver chose to make an issue of it. Not one. It has trouble spinning in gravel. The only saving grace is 4wd...
I checked a gear/tire chart (http://www.4lo.com/calc/geartable.htm), and 4.27 in 4th puts me at 3k with 31" tires, which I have in stock. To get down further, I could pop for some 33s, which puts me a little under 2900. 5th isn't that much taller, but it would help. I do have a set of 4.10s in a parts truck up at my bush lot, but would like to avoid going down that road, at least until I know I can be happy with a 1.6 and get a less-crusty truck to work with.
To go over 33" is not impossible although I'd likely go metric and get some 16" wheels (a bit pricey), but I may run into difficulty with various other parts in the front end (ifs is not exactly bulletproof when really large tires go on)...what's an optimum or even slightly high cruising rpm to shoot for with a 1.6? Should I be really considering digging out the 4.10s? I see many posts speaking of horsepower, but what kind of torque figures (what interests me) go with those hp numbers? Any other opinions, ideas, or conjecture would be most welcome...
Thanks -
#14 by Rabbit on Roids on 31 Aug, 2009 10:16
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i dont think its gonna make that big of a difference either way. wether you use 4.10s or 4.30s. but thats the first truck ive seen that had 4.30's with an auto. my 88 runner had 4.10s with an auto. it came from the factory with them, checked the option tag. my 87 22re 4runner had rediculiously high gears, it had 3.73s in it if i remember correctly. just like yours, it wouldnt even burn out in gravel, and the transfer case was shot, and the front end drive train was half V6/turbo and the other side was normal light duty 4cyl parts. if (when) i build a diesel 4runner, im going to use my stock gears and my stock tranny. the setup works good with 180 horsepower, about what i should get out of the 2.0, but i should see alot more torque out of the 5 cylinder than the V6. and my V6 has no problem turning 35 x 12.50 BFG mudders. when im wheelin, i just use high range with first gear, goes anywhere cause i can keep the tires spinnin fast enough to keep them cleaned out.
so, see how it performs with whatever it has in it now, then if you need to, change them. but who knows, the 4.30s might be just what the doctor ordered.