cp3 info

[gigaz2]

hi all,

I've been thinking about slapping a common rail setup on my 1Z, the CP3 pump I have bolts right on where the old VP37 used to be, injectors are thinner, but use the same dsla type nozzles so an adapter ring could be fabricated.

one thing that I couldn't find on the web is information regarding the CP3 pump, is it made on different flavours?
I find difficult to believe that the same pump on a 1.9L renault DCI engine is used on a Duramax or Cummins behemoth

can anybody shed some light on this?

[gigaz2]

ok, I've found out that it does comes in different flavours, and mine needs more sugar

CR/CP3S3/yxx/20-789S

y can be R or L determines rotation
xx can be from 70 to 125, mine is 70, Duramax are 110, there is a MAN truck that uses the 125

I don't understand what that number means

[lord_verminaard]

Really interested.  I did some reading on how the CP3 works, pretty simple really.  Wondering how you are going to build a fuel rail?  That's a critical part when you are dealing with 20,000 psi of fuel pressure.   

Brendan

[gigaz2]

I'm not

ebay is your friend on that, rails are really cheap considering the effort to make one.
usually they also come with the lines to injectors and pump.

I've found that my pump has the capacity to pump 7mm^3 of fuel per stroke I  guess that's what the "70" on the partnumber means
thats good, as the same pump is used on up to 170hp truck engines and I still have room to upgrade (duramax cp3's pump 11mm^3 per stroke )

I have to machine adapter rings to seal the injectors on the 1Z head and to figure out all the electronics

[lord_verminaard]

Gonna drive it with the timing belt or otherwise?  From what I read, it doesn't need to be "timed" with the engine, so that gives you some flexibility.  Plus, I read that they are driven 1:1 with the engine RPM, correct?

How about mounting?  Building an adapter to mount in the stock IP location?  Seems easy enough.

Electronics.... always the hard part.    Is it a Bosch-made ECU?

This is good stuff!

Brendan

[aidan]

Interesting idea, had a brief idea myself when it was mentioned on tdiclub but never did anything.

Did see something mentioned a good while back, if you would make do with one single injection rather than the stages, was to use megasquirt as you are essentially just firing an electronic injector similar to a petrol engine. Then again if it can fire it once, is there anything to say it can't fire several times?

[scottmandu]

very interesting. Tuning will be a challenge inject too much fuel all at once an you will lift the head clean off the block. Also make sure your injector patterns are the same as the tdi. This is way cool!

[gigaz2]

cp3 is bosch 
mouts right up in the VE location, nose is the right leght, belt aligns perfecly.
I have a small gear that gets close to 1:1 and the VE gear also, the stock one enables the use of the stock belt, if using the smaller one a new belt will have to be sourced.

in the electronics department, the best would be to source a bosch ecu.
megasquirt is a nice project but it can't even get close to our needs on timing, I have one and it CAN be made to control a eTDI, a common rail is a completely different beast.
think of it like: a eTDI WILL start without the ecu (selenoid direct to battery and hammer mod to set fuel to an intermediate fixed value)
CR needs the ecu to control every single detail

injector patterns.. the injectors I have use the same DSLA nozzles as the regular tdi

could anyone link the discussion on other forums? all info is welcome 

[aidan]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=139569&highlight=common+rail
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247405&highlight=common+rail

Are you using HDI parts? Maybe an early enough 406 HDI has an ecu that can remove immobiliser? Also do you know if the earlier HDIs have the coded injectors?

[ryanp]

i dont think the injectors are coded, my friend swapped some a while back himself in 306 hdi

Interesting threads!

Ry

[aidan]

Could be a good project.
Even better would be 2.5 tdi with alfa 2.4jtd CR setup!

[lord_verminaard]

cp3 is bosch 
mouts right up in the VE location, nose is the right leght, belt aligns perfecly.
I have a small gear that gets close to 1:1 and the VE gear also, the stock one enables the use of the stock belt, if using the smaller one a new belt will have to be sourced.

Woah!!!!   

Ok, so to sum it up so far:

The CP3 WILL bolt to a TDI mounting bracket.
The CP3 CAN use the stock pulley & belt.
CR nozzles are the same pattern as TDI's.

So that leaves us with these things to figure out:
Adapter piece for CR injectors in TDI head- easy enough?
The rail itself... how does it fit?
Electronics:
-ECU:  Any CR 4-cyl ECU could probably be used, I'm sure they have been "cracked" by programmers already.
-Additional sensors:  What else does the CR need?  Cam sensor?  TDI's already have a crank sensor in the rear.

What else?  Man, I AM interested in this now.  I know for a fact that those CR pumps are easier to source in the USA than DI-specific 4-cylinder VE pumps. 

Brendan

[aidan]

Have a look at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/406-hdi-injectors-x4-full-working-order_W0QQitemZ150363229571QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230258cd83&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
You can see where the clamps go, similar style to VW units

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-HDI-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump-Good-Working-Order_W0QQitemZ150360674741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230231d1b5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
A pump

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peugeot-306-Mk3-HDI-Fuel-rail-high-pressure-sensor_W0QQitemZ280357073298QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4146957192&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
A rail


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/peugeot-306-hdi-engine-gear-box-406-expert-206-dispatc_W0QQitemZ280378926004QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4147e2e3b4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Complete engine, no cover

[aidan]

Reason I keep suggesting HDI is it is the earliest 4 cylinder CR engine I think we had here in 1999. A lot followed in 2000/01ish, but I would expect the HDI to have the simplest setup. You can buy a complete engine for £250

[lord_verminaard]

Wow, now I get it.  Thanks for the links to pics.  I was thinking the rail was similar to a FI gasser rail, where the injectors fit directly into the rail itself.  With those hard lines from the rail to the injectors, that gives us a little wiggle room. 

This is looking more and more feasible every minute!

Brendan