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Injector nozzle pintle lift
by
fspGTD
on 13 Sep, 2005 11:10
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While gutting an injector to make into a leakdown test adapter yesterday, I first checked the pintle lift of its injector nozzle. This was just a standard A1 1.6l diesel nozzle, with Bosch part number DN0SD293. The pintle lift was .0275" (+/- .0005")
If anyone has the proper measuring equipment do do this test on some GTD nozzles or other IDI VW Diesel compatible nozzles, I'd love to hear what you find, and make a comparison. It would be interesting to find out if different nozzles have differing pintle lifts, and if so by how much. It could be a higher pintle lift responsible for some nozzles flowing more than others.
To measure pintle lift, I clamped the nozzle in a vice, then rigged up a dial indicator so it touched the back of the pintle via a magnetic stand, which latched on to the flat-machined spot on the back of the vice. Then I pressed on the tip of the needle, lifting the pintle until it contacted the piece that seals the back side of the nozzle that I was holding with my other hand (which is what limits the travel of the pintle). The dial indicator then measured the pintle lift.
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#1
by
RedRotors
on 16 Sep, 2005 05:58
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You will always amaze me Jake!
I never tested the pintle displacement, but to raise the travelling, perhaps we can grind the pintle, and then measure it to be able to have the same pintle lenght.. By raising the displacement, we probably can raise the fueling too..
Marc/
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#2
by
fspGTD
on 16 Sep, 2005 12:39
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I have been wondering the same thing, Marc... It seems a pintle lift increase could be accomplished two ways: 1. machining the back face of the pintle (while somehow leaving in-tact the post that sticks out of it), or 2. machining a recess into the piece behind the pintle in the area the pintle makes contact with at full lift.
But it seems wise to measure the pintle lift of a few stock pintle/nozzle types and see what the OEM range of pintle lift is. If I had other nozzle types, I would do some more measuring. I'm hoping someone else can chip in some measuring here. Or I would offer to measure them myself if someone was willing to let me borrow their nozzle(s) for measuring. Either new or old nozzles would work. I've got the required appropriate vice, dial indicator, and magnetic support stand. I'd even be willing to reimburse the shipping&handling. Would be really interested in determining the pintle lift of a GTD and/or a 2-stage 1.9lTD nozzle.
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#3
by
vwmike
on 16 Sep, 2005 13:36
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I have a bunch of different nozzles littering my bench. Whereabouts around Seattle are you?
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#4
by
fspGTD
on 16 Sep, 2005 15:13
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cool, vwmike! You have an IM.
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#5
by
RedRotors
on 18 Sep, 2005 12:46
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Jake,
Im gonna try to put my hand on a GTD nozzles set, Smog is a good friend of mine..
and them send it to ya with a few more that i have here...
Marc/
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#6
by
Smog
on 19 Sep, 2005 10:34
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Jake,
Im gonna try to put my hand on a GTD nozzles set, Smog is a good friend of mine.. and them send it to ya with a few more that i have here...
Marc/
I also have some GMC nozzles 1.9td and GTD ....
As I don't sleep very well with the newborn kid (so the brain response is very slow)... please send me a picture with detailed instruction to take the pintle lift thing....
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#7
by
fspGTD
on 20 Sep, 2005 10:56
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Marc and Smog: Thanks for your willingness to help. Vwmike and I are going to get together and measure the pintle lift of all the nozzles we can scrounge up between the two of us. He has GTD nozzles and others. And I've got 1.9lTD 2-spring'ers in my Rabbit I could disassemble for a measurement. Let's first wait to see what information comes out of that, and we'll go from there. Thanks again!
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#8
by
fspGTD
on 21 Sep, 2005 23:02
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VWMike came over today and we did some pintle lift measuring.
Here is the list I have of pintle lifts for various nozzles:
Nozzle ID Application [VW Part #] Lift
----------- ------------------------- ------------ ------
DN0 SD 273 Hydraulic 1.6D&TD 068 130 211D .024"
DN0 SD 193 1.5D 068 130 211 .026"
DN0 SD 293 Solid 1.6D&TD 068 130 211B .0275"
DN0 SD 1930 Superceeded by 068130211B 068 130 211C .028"
DN0 SD 274 Intercooled 1.6TD 068 130 211F .0315"
DN0 SD 240 Mercedes (thicker needle) .038"
DN0 SD 252 Peugeot (groove in seat) .033"
So far, out of the VW/Audi nozzles, the RA/SB GTD nozzles (DN0 SD 274) do indeed have the highest lift. But it is interesting to note that both the Mercedes and Peugeot nozzles had pintle lifts that were even higher.
If anyone has any other nozzles and ability to measure them, please post up the results here and I'll add them to the list.
[9/22 Edit: added VW part numbers and applications]
[9/23 Edit: added DN0SD1930 application]
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#9
by
vwmike
on 22 Sep, 2005 02:31
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DN0 SD 273 came on several different cars, but for our purposes it came on the 1.6TD in the MK2.
DN0 SD 193 I'll have to go and dig this nozzle out of the bag... I don't recall which one of these it was:
DN 0 SD 193 - 0 434 250 063 - Fiat, Iveco, Opel
DN 0 SD 193/ - 0 434 250 126 - Renault? Probably something else too.
DN 0 SD193 - 9 430 037 215 - I think Volvo 6 cyl, and Passat 1.5D
That is exactly how it lists that number.
DN0 SD 293 - VW 1.6D
DN0 SD 1930 - Ford, Opel, and probably something else because I have no idea how I would have gotten my hands on them...that is unless someone stuck them in some other holders.
DN0 SD 274 - VW - RA/SB 1.6TD - Audi 100 2.0 TD
Perhaps I'll get some pictures of the different pintles as the shape and taper of them is quite a bit different.
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#10
by
fspGTD
on 22 Sep, 2005 11:03
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Mike - thanks for the info.
I am baffled by the DN0 SD 1930 as well, although I did manage to cross it to a VW part number (068 130 211C). It's just not a valid north american VW part number and I don't know the application. I wonder if it might be also from some Ford diesel that was sold around here? I have updated the chart above with VW part numbers and applications.
I believe that there are only 3 VW nozzles that we haven't yet measured now:
1. DN0 SD 294 (068 130 211G), which I can't find an application. I'm guessing some odd euro-only thing?
2. DN0 SD 159 (068 130 211H), which is 1.6l eco-diesel and early 1-stage AAZ.
3. DN0 SD 308 (028130211A), which is 2-stage AAZ. (I've got these in my Rabbit currently, and will try popping one open to measure it when I can.)
I'd be interested in seeing some close-up shots of pintle needles. I actually remember the tips of all of them looking the same though, at least among the VW applications. (Only differences I recall were the Mercedes, which had the thicker needle at the end, and the Peugeot, which had the extra circular groove.)
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#11
by
fspGTD
on 22 Sep, 2005 13:32
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About the groove in the peugeot pintle/nozzle... although I'm curious why it's there, I don't think it will make a functional difference in the way the nozzle would work. Here's why:
Note that from figure 15 of the 1.6lTD SAE Paper (VW diesel injector nozzle cross-section) that the top-most conical cut of the pintle doesn't restrict diesel flow at all. It's only there as an area for hydraulic pressure to push on. This is where the extra groove was present on the peugeot injector.
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#12
by
fspGTD
on 22 Sep, 2005 14:15
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Another SAE Paper finding...
A graph of needle lift is shown in the 1.5D SAE Paper, page 91, figure 23 (
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46&&start=16) for the DN0 SD 193. It indicates a max needle lift of about 1mm. But according to my measurements, the lift is .66mm (.026")! I'm quite sure I measured the lift accurately, but what explains the SAE paper indicating it should be 50% greater!? :?
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#13
by
lord_verminaard
on 22 Sep, 2005 20:19
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Hey Jake and all, got your PM, looks like the 068 130 211 G are from the 95 AND 98 transporter, both the "1X" engine code (60hp 1.9 N/A) and the AAB and AJA 5-cylinder 78 hp N/A diesels. I say 95 and 98 because only the 95 with the 1X engine had it, and only the 98 with the AAB/AJA had it. Go figure. :roll:
For the 068 130 211 C, it looks like those were a replacement part for the common 068 130 211 B, which were in just about everything VW or Audi (and I guess the part crosses over to some Fords and Fiats, and even the Volvo D24 series) from 85 to 89, turbo or N/A. Strangely enough, I guess the "c" supercedes (or sub-cedes, in this case?) back to the "b". I've noticed this trend in VW parts before, sometimes it would be due to a different manufacturer in the part, we saw this a lot with electronics, where Bosch might make one version and Pierburg might make another, they would have the same part number but a different letter at the end which wouldnt specify an updated part like it usually does.
Hope this helps.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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#14
by
fspGTD
on 23 Sep, 2005 10:37
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Thanks for the info, Brendan!
looks like the 068 130 211 G are from the 95 AND 98 transporter, both the "1X" engine code (60hp 1.9 N/A) and the AAB and AJA 5-cylinder 78 hp N/A diesels. I say 95 and 98 because only the 95 with the 1X engine had it, and only the 98 with the AAB/AJA had it.
Pretty esoteric... no wonder I wasn't able to get much info on this application. We can probably rule that injector out as a performance candidate, given it was only installed on low-powered naturally aspirated motors. That injector supposedly has a flat-cut on its pintle tip for improved pre-injection without carboning up though. (As does the DN0 SD 297, used on some euro VW IDIs, but I can't find a VW part number for it.)