Poor starting on Franken Engine

[barrygti]

Right guys here is my issues:

I have 1.6 solid block, 1.9 hydro head, 2 notch gasket(measured protrusion). Running 1.9 twin stage injectors and 1.6td fuel pump with all settings standard at moment.

Basically first start from cold is an issue, I have got 4 new Bosch Glow plugs in there all pulling between 16.5-18amps each on my pimped out glow plug wiring and solenoid. BIG battery and good condition, only downside may be the starter, it's a Skoda Pickup and not sure of it's condition but never fails.

If I glow for 2-3 times and then start it takes maybe 5 seconds running on starter and then starts catching on a couple, need to keep on the starter for another couple of secs and then hold some throttle on, she doesn't seem to change revs no matter how much throttle for maybe 3-5 seconds and then she picks up. Loads of white smoke when she does catch and a missing/lumpy idle for another 15 or so seconds unless I rev her a bit and it starts to clear.

Once running all is great and when warm she seems to start ok but still not perfect. I don't have cold start advance cable but if I do flick the lever and try the fault isn't any better or worse, just a lot nosier diesel knock when she does start.

I am thinking of trying a lift pump in case it is fuel draining back but just not sure, I also still have the 1.6 injectors but don't want the hassle of changing them all...........

[arb]

What's your timing set at?

[lovinthedeez]

so the skoda was a diesel originally right.  because if it was a gasser, your engine wants more cranking speed.

[barrygti]

What's your timing set at?

0.95mm, but I never had lift gauge myself so had to get local diesel guy to do it. I am a mechanic so got him to do it free but it's the only bit I never done myself.

Yes diesel to start with.

[arb]

What's your timing set at?

0.95mm, but I never had lift gauge myself so had to get local diesel guy to do it. I am a mechanic so got him to do it free but it's the only bit I never done myself.

Yes diesel to start with.

Do you have a cold start lever ? Does it work? Is it possible there is a lever on the back side of your IP that was not in the full off position when he timed the IP ?

[zukgod1]

Call the guy that set the timing and make sure he set it at .950, personally I would have it at 1.05 for starting ease.

How old are the injectors?  What are they set at?

[Rabbit TD]

I would set the timing up to that point too, {1.05} and also hook up the cable.  I don't know why so many people go through all the different modifications we do with fuel and timing related things and never hook up the cable.  I know I doubt if any of mine would ever start in the Winter without it no matter how many batteries and glow plugs were in it.  I can tell you on a 1.6 T/D pump it will advance your timing .20 m/m because I've checked mine to see what it will advance it to with the indicator before when setting the timing.  It makes things a lot easier than having to go through all the recycling the plugs and waiting  for all 4 cyls. to catch up and wait for the clouds to go away.  If you have good compression, and a good battery, 4 good plugs and the timing around 1.05 it will start 10 times easier with the cable pulled if the injectors are matched to the pump, {155}.  But nobody seems to want to hook them up for some reason.  It is a heck of a lot easier to connect everything before the pump is on the bracket though and I imagine that's why so many are left unhooked.  The injector types can change the pictue a lot too.  When I put my T/D together last Winter I first set the timing at 1.00 with the T/D pump, I had to put the N/A one back on because of leaks in the T/D one for a while and set it to the same setting, 1.00 which is where it ran good on the other N/A engine and it had way less power and a lot harder to start with the 155 injectors instead of the 134's in the N/A engine.  I was advised to set it up here which I did little by little and I got to 1.17  eventualy and now at 1.14 and am about where it was originaly, higher than it will start getting to warm on this engine combonation.  I think you will have to experiment a lot with your timing so I recomend getting the dial indicator, we all need one if we're gonna play with these things as much as we do.  

[RabbitJockey]

i would definitely advance your timing, i think daves 195hp franken engine was set to 1.15

[Rabbit TD]

i would definitely advance your timing, i think daves 195hp franken engine was set to 1.15

It sounds like others are doing the same thing, you basicly have to experiment with timing when switching things like injectors and pumps of different types wheather it's 150 or 50 hp. and monitor the starting, smoke, acceleration and temps and mileage to see what helps or not and if it's worth the changes made.

[barrygti]

Thanks guys, will get the dial off him and do it myself. I wonder if I should go to hassle of trying the 1.6 injectors see if that clears it. I tried advancing timing half a pencil line a time and as I say all I get is more knock but not better starting.

I can't really hook up the cold start as my Skoda had electronic pump on 1.9 engine so no handle or cable, would be a pain in the ass....

[zukgod1]

I did have a situation once where the timing was too far advanced causing hard starts. I retarded the timing a little at a time until it started easier.

May be worth a shot if your going to be redoing it anyway.

[Rabbit TD]

I think I would try changing to the 1.6 injectors and see how that works also and some timing experimenting.  I can't say how the rebuilt Giles 155 bar T/D ones I'm now using work with the T/D pump because I don't have it back on yet but before they were rebuilt with this new engine and the T/D pump set at 1.0 it ran great but was hard to start because the old pump leaked bad.  Since then I had Giles rebuild them thinking they could have been part of my problem but it was all pump.  I still have them in the engine with a real good N/A pump from my other engine which ran great and 52 mpg also.  I had to keep moving the timing up little by little and noticing the changes it made.  I'd go in steps of .05 m/m and it kept getting better and I stopped at 1.20 because I noticed it getting a little warmer and am now at 1.17 and it starts just bumping the key like the old engine did when warm and just a few turns when cold with the plugs lit and cold start pulled.  You really should get a universal choke cable or a lawn mower throttle cable type thing and hook that cold start up, you'll be glad you did.  You should also get yourself a timing indicator too, I've seen them at various places with the whole timing set including the cam lock, Indicator with it's adapter and the pump pulley lock pin for $100 and less.  I got my indicator from Parts Place and it was $100 I think a few years ago and I thought "Man I hate to spend that much on something I'm only gonna use once or twice",  but 2 engines and what-not later I've used the hell out of that thing and if you don't have it everything is just guesswork and with doing things like changing injectors, pumps and turbos you have to know exactly where you are at to make any changes and how much of a change and then be able to duplicate it when you have to tear it apart again or retime it back to the place where it ran good before.  It's amazing how little movement it takes to make the needle move and how much difference .05 m/m makes one way or another, no way can you estimate it and then get back to it again if needed.  Oh I almost forgot, I was thinking today about my post yesterday to you and I said the advance lever moves the timing up .020 m/m, that's wrong, it moves it .20 m/m and makes a big difference.  I don't know much about your injectors you are using but it seems like everybody  just recomends the 1.6 T/D ones from what I've read and that's the 155 bar ones with it's corresponding T/D pump set at 1.0 to start with.  Different pumps and injector types require different settings when used with eachother which is all the more reason for having the timing tool and it's real easy to use.    

[burn_your_money]

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18710.0

The timing gauge and adapter is like $30 from these guys. The other timing tools can be easily made from other tools/pieces kicking around.

[barrygti]

Guys, I got the tools and set the timing to 1.05mm, still bad starting from cold.

I swung the pump more retarded and it was worse, just pumped out smoke and never even sounded like catching. So I advanced it more and still the same on a total cold start maybe 3 degrees celsius even if I glow it 3 times it turns over and slightly catches and takes maybe 3 attempts to start and even then no matter what throttle I apply it just runs very slow and huge clouds of unburnt fuel. Eventually after maybe 5-10 secs of it catching it will rev up and respond to throttle.

Now if I leave it idling again it will misfire every couple of seconds or so for maybe 3 minutes and then runs fine. If I drive away as soon as it's started it clears fine and doesn't misfire at all.

If I flick the cold start lever even in advanced position it makes no difference to starting just a lot more diesel knock.

Now if the engine has ran within say 2 hours she starts fine, any longer and she is slightly hard to start, maybe a few turns and catches.

I am beginning to think 2 things, either the compression is low and needs a set of rings or the starter isn't kicking over fast enough but I find that unlikely as it starts fine when hot.

I need to do a compression test.......... 

Not managed to change injectors yet as the 1.9 ones are taller than 1.6 and my deep socket doesn't fit. Will hopefully do them and a comp check at weekend.

[Rabbit on Roids]

1.) check glow plugs
2.) check glow plugs
3.) advance it some more
4.) advance it some more, till you dont like how much it rattles.
5.) check your timing mark on the flywheel. i had a timing gremlin for the longest time, and it turned out to be my flywheel causing me to not be able to time it right.
6.) check your battery cable connections at both ends, at the battery, and on the starter and body. make sure they are spotless clean. even grease them if it makes you feel better. grease prevents corrosion.
7.) check that your pump hasnt skipped a tooth on the sprocket.

being a franken built engine, you probably cant really use a timing spec from a certain engine. you will probably have to play with it till you get it the way you want it. thats part of the territory when you start building something out of pieces that were never designed to work together.