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New here, looking at an '83 Audi 5000
by
doperide07
on 24 May, 2009 23:01
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I'm a Volvo and BMW guy, but thanks to a friend I've started venturing into Audi's/VW's quite a bit. I was directed to this forum from a friend on one of the Volvo forums, so hopefully you guys can help me with my questions. Anyways, I was driving today and saw an older Audi 5000 for sale on the side of the road. I checked the car out and it was in mint condition inside and out with zero rust on it. I talked to the owner and it's an '83 Audi 5000 with the TD engine backed by an automatic. It's got 129,000 miles on it and doesn't leak a drop of anything. I opened the hood and there was some seepage around the valve cover, but nothing too bad at all. I popped open the oil cap and looked in with a flashlight and didn't see any sludge to be worried about either. The seller was a mechanic himself and specialized in Mercedes diesels and it seems like he maintained the car well.
Anyways, I asked him if I could take it for a drive and he said sure. The car started up almost right away when cold, and only smoked a little blue for about 5-10 seconds after start up and then cleared up. It seemed a little noisy for the first minute of idling, but quieted down also. On the drive everything seemed well, according to the stock gauge it boosted somewhere between 1.5 and 2 bar and although it was slow as molasses it still drove well.
Here's the problems with the car. The tachometer doesn't work and the battery light is on, my friend told me it has something to do with a "W" terminal that VW's/Audi's have on their alternator, is that an easy fix? Also, the left rear brake caliper drags slightly due to a frozen e-brake. Will a rear caliper be tough to find should I find out that I have to replace it? The brake light (dash) is on as well, however after driving the car the pedal is firm and there's no leaks in the system, is this just an electrical problem or should I be worried?
The guy is asking $850 for the car, but I feel like I can grab it for around $600, would this be a good deal? Are there any other problem areas or known failures I should check out, or should I simply steer away from this car altogether?
-Thanks, Brandon
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#1
by
Turbinepowered
on 25 May, 2009 13:15
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If it feels good to you, go for it. Internal parts like pistons and rings are the same as 1.6 engines, you just have an extra hole to worry about.
Timing belts (it has two) are shared with the Volvo I6 diesel and turbodiesel engines.
Injection pump parts (hydraulic head and LDA parts) are I5 specific, mostly because it sits on the back of the engine.
Is the battery charging? If not, and the tach isn't working and the battery light is on, I'd suspect the alternator isn't putting out anything. Two problems, one source. I believe you can just swap any other W-terminal diesel alternator right on in there, it's the same W terminal.
I have an I5 naturally aspirated engine that was going to go into a Quantum Syncro... but I traded the Syncro away, so I'll probably rebuild it and wait for a 5kQT Avant to come available with a dead engine.
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#2
by
doperide07
on 25 May, 2009 13:30
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If it feels good to you, go for it. Internal parts like pistons and rings are the same as 1.6 engines, you just have an extra hole to worry about.
Timing belts (it has two) are shared with the Volvo I6 diesel and turbodiesel engines.
Injection pump parts (hydraulic head and LDA parts) are I5 specific, mostly because it sits on the back of the engine.
Is the battery charging? If not, and the tach isn't working and the battery light is on, I'd suspect the alternator isn't putting out anything. Two problems, one source. I believe you can just swap any other W-terminal diesel alternator right on in there, it's the same W terminal.
Nope, the battery was charging fine. The car started up no problem cold, and then it idled/drove for 15 minutes, I shut it off, and then he restarted it about 5 minutes later to move it. The whole time the car didn't struggle to crank or anything.
Basically i'm hoping I can get this car and have a fairly reliable winter beater as well as a fuel efficient car in case I have to take longer trips. I'm hoping I won't have to climb in there and change an injection pump or do timing belt(s) within the next 1,000 miles or something. As for the timing belts, should they have been done by the 129,000 mile mark and if not, should I expect to have to do them soon?
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#3
by
Turbinepowered
on 25 May, 2009 18:04
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Timing belts are every 60k, just like the four cylinder engines. Check to see when they were last done.
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#4
by
doperide07
on 25 May, 2009 20:01
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Timing belts are every 60k, just like the four cylinder engines. Check to see when they were last done.
Alright sounds good. I'll talk to the owner about the timing belts. Worse case scenario they haven't been done and I can just talk him down on the price even more. Are these 5 cylinder diesels interference engines?
Also, anyone know about the brake light problem on the dash I mentioned in the first post?
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#5
by
jackbombay
on 25 May, 2009 20:09
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Hello
Are these 5 cylinder diesels interference engines?
Yea, very much so. The high compression required for Diesels to run eliminates the possibility of them being non-interference.
Also, anyone know about the brake light problem on the dash I mentioned in the first post?
Is it like the bad bulb warning light that 240 Volvos have? I know with my 240s that light would come on if the 2 brake light bulbs were not the same brand/age. Are both brake lights working? Low brake fluid warning light maybe?
I just realized that I have a bently manual for the 83 audi TD, if the car you're looking at doesn't come with one I'll sell you mine for cheap...
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#6
by
doperide07
on 25 May, 2009 21:33
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Hello
Are these 5 cylinder diesels interference engines?
Yea, very much so. The high compression required for Diesels to run eliminates the possibility of them being non-interference.
Also, anyone know about the brake light problem on the dash I mentioned in the first post?
Is it like the bad bulb warning light that 240 Volvos have? I know with my 240s that light would come on if the 2 brake light bulbs were not the same brand/age. Are both brake lights working? Low brake fluid warning light maybe?
I just realized that I have a bently manual for the 83 audi TD, if the car you're looking at doesn't come with one I'll sell you mine for cheap...
Looks like I can't escape the Turbobricks community wherever I go.
Anyways, no it's not like the brake light bulb, it's like the brake light you'd have on in any car if your e-brake was up or if you had a brake line break or something. The passenger's rear tail light does have a few broken panels, but I feel like that wouldn't cause the brake light to come on. I didn't check the level in the reservoir, I didn't think too because the brake pedal felt fine, I guess i'll do that though when I go back to check out the car tomorrow or Wednesday.
Basically, i'm really just hoping this would be a trouble free car I could drive all year round, but particularly in the winter. I'm an Auto Technician myself, but that doesn't mean I want to be replacing and fixing this car every other weekend. I'm hoping if I treat this car nicely and maintain it well, it'll return the favor. Plus, i've secretly always wanted a diesel commuter, there's something about old 80's diesel cars that I love.
Is this a car I should be looking at or should I look elsewhere?
As for the manual, if I do pick this car up, i'll definitely take that off your hands. I'm new to the whole diesel world and i'm sure it would be a ton of help.
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#7
by
rabbid79
on 26 May, 2009 00:00
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GET IT! I can't stress that enough. That is an amazingly cool car, and an even cooler price. There is another 5000 TD on another forum (ask me which one, and I'll tell you), and the guy wants $3500. I'd pay that for one of these cars if it was in good condition and I wasn't already in the middle of swapping a TD into a Quattro. Anything less than $1000 for a car in the condition you described it is a steal. Like the others have said, it's basically the 1.6TD with an extra cylinder added to the back. It's not that simple of course. There are a couple of things that make it distinct such as a better flowing intake manifold, larger intake valves, more rigid block design, etc. These 5 cyl engines are based on the same 5 cyl gas engines that Audi sold millions of, so many of the parts are interchangable with them too. All of the same performance tricks apply as well: Boost, fueling, intercooling, etc. And in case you didn't know, the 6 cyl diesel and turbo diesel that showed up in the early to mid 80's Volvos are basically the VW/Audi 5 cyl, but with a 6th cyl added to the front. Again, many of the parts are interchangable. Get it.
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#8
by
doperide07
on 26 May, 2009 07:28
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GET IT! I can't stress that enough. That is an amazingly cool car, and an even cooler price. There is another 5000 TD on another forum (ask me which one, and I'll tell you), and the guy wants $3500. I'd pay that for one of these cars if it was in good condition and I wasn't already in the middle of swapping a TD into a Quattro. Anything less than $1000 for a car in the condition you described it is a steal. Like the others have said, it's basically the 1.6TD with an extra cylinder added to the back. It's not that simple of course. There are a couple of things that make it distinct such as a better flowing intake manifold, larger intake valves, more rigid block design, etc. These 5 cyl engines are based on the same 5 cyl gas engines that Audi sold millions of, so many of the parts are interchangable with them too. All of the same performance tricks apply as well: Boost, fueling, intercooling, etc. And in case you didn't know, the 6 cyl diesel and turbo diesel that showed up in the early to mid 80's Volvos are basically the VW/Audi 5 cyl, but with a 6th cyl added to the front. Again, many of the parts are interchangable. Get it.
I'd like to see that other car if you could link it to me. I've been trying to find another one for sale to compare condition/prices and I can't find any anywhere.
I don't doubt it's a very cool car. Older diesel cars have always had a certain allure to them I felt like. I drove the car and loved it, which is hard to do when I come from a world of SBC's and boosted Volvos and this car was slower than molasses. I'm really just worried about reliability. I've already got my toys with my Camaro and my Volvo, and I really do need this Audi to take me up to school and back (about a 240 mile round trip) as well as be reliable while I'm there no matter the season. If I maintain this car with fluid changes and all regular maintenance, whatever that may be for diesels, will this car do that for me? I'm not too worried about little electrical problems here and there, but what I can't afford is a mechanical failure where I can't drive the car. That's the biggest thing that I'm worried about. Like I said, I'm a mechanic by trade, but that doesn't mean I'd be okay with being on the side of the mass pike because the car broken down.
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#9
by
rabbid79
on 26 May, 2009 07:41
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Here's the link:
http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/show.php?table=pm_audifans_Cars&id=4328It will be hard to compare prices since there are so few of these things out there. Honestly, you only see about 1 drivable 5000 TD for sale every year. I know, because I always have my eyes open looking for them.
As was previously mentioned, definitely change the belts, filters, fluids, etc. The other thing I'd check is the injectors. I once had one of these cars with a bad injector, and it burned away the swirl chamber of one of the cylinders at about 60K miles. Heads are getting harder to find for these things (though not impossible), and the injectors (or at least the nozzles) are one of those wear items that need to be replaced anyway. Make sure to replace the glow plugs too if you're not sure how old they are. While you're at it, make sure to replace any brittle hoses, such as the fuel lines between the injectors, and various "vacuum" lines. They get very brittle over time, and I've seen a couple of posts on here where it has left people stranded on the side of the road with smokey engines.
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#10
by
jackbombay
on 26 May, 2009 08:31
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Heads are getting harder to find for these things (though not impossible),
I looked for 6 months and didn't find anything, fwiw.
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#11
by
doperide07
on 26 May, 2009 08:37
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I just got off the phone with the owner. He's owned the car for about 2 years and 20,000 miles or so. He has no idea when the last time the timing belts or glow plugs were changed, and he's only done routine maintenance to it since he's had it. If I get the car the first thing I'd do is probably the timing belts and glow plugs and then send the injectors out to be cleaned.
What's doing a timing belt on these engines like? Is it a simple 3-4 hour job to do both, or is it a total pain since they're in the back of the engine? Will I need any special tools?
As for the cylinder heads, should I expect to need to replace it down the road, and what usually causes that? I'm sure I'd wind the car out at times when I was merging or trying to beat a yellow light, but other than that it wouldn't be a regular thing. I always let my turbo cars idle/cool down before I shut them off as well.
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#12
by
rabbid79
on 26 May, 2009 19:46
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Those would be good first things to do. You should also adjust the valves. There's only one timing belt on the back of the engine. It's for the injection pump. The other timing belt is on the front. There are a few special tools you will need. A couple of them can be rented from one of the Audi enthusiast's websites. I haven't done the job personally, but I have changed the timing belt on a turbo 5-cyl gas engine. It's not too bad as long as you have the right tools.
I wouldn't "expect" to replace the head, but sometimes they do go bad. They suffer with the cracks between the valves just like the 1.6's do. By itself, this isn't cause enough to replace the head. Just make sure not to overheat the engine and warp the head, because then you'll have problems. Make sure you've got good glow plugs, good injectors, and have adjusted the valves. As long as it has not been abused, I don't see why you can't get another 120K miles out of it. If you do have to replace the head, you can use one from a naturally aspirated diesel. There are a lot of people that will tell you it won't work, and that the alloy is different, etc. If it's an older head, the 11mm head bolt holes will need to be drilled to 12mm. The newer N/A heads have the larger bolt holes, and some have speculated, even the same alloy and the turbo heads. I have personally used a N/A head on a turbo and not had any problems. If you were really ambitious you could also retrofit a head from an AAB (2.4 L diesel available in Canada and the UK). It wouldn't be a direct swap, but shouldn't be too bad. It would give you a lower compression ratio however.
Like you said, let it warm up and cool down properly. I wouldn't worry about winding it out. They're good rev-ers.
You could also look at it from another perspective. A lot of these parts are desirable. The turbo fuel injection pump, turbo, crank, head, block, etc. are worth something. If it ever did up and die, you could recoup some of your losses by parting it out. If the body is in really nice condition, it holds some nostalgic value, and is also worth some money.
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#13
by
jackbombay
on 26 May, 2009 20:51
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Is it a simple 3-4 hour job to do both
Yea, quicker than that probably, assuming you have the special tools.
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#14
by
mattbondy
on 28 May, 2009 17:20
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I run my 86 Jetta without an alternator and I can start it at least 10 times without any indication of a problem.
However, I must say that those cars are really nice and that is a low price. My one concern would be whether or not the owner is trying to say the alternator works when it does not. This could indicate something about the owner. One other opinion: those automatics are terrible. I have a slushbox in my Jetta. I dont like it. Until the engine warms up it is a struggle to keep the vehicle in third gear when I go slower then 60 km/h. It is also loud because the engine is often forced to run at high rpms. I never go on freeways, fuel efficiency just goes out the window.
The lack of power should be addressable. There are so many possibilities if you have a turbocharger.