The GTD RETURNS!

[hillfolk'r]

heh well i got no problems using the a1 brackets,pulleys ,motor mounts,,actually ditched that nastyharmonic balancer,a single  v groove pulley is in its place,,,nasty heavy flywheel gone,and 6 pounder in place,,,nice spool up,,,,must be like 15 pounds gone from crank between pulleys/clutch,,it rocks,,,,,,,

[RabbitGTDguy]

in the last thread we were talking about the pump sprocket...

Your using the small shaft IDI style injection pump with the 12mm head?

I am using a modified diesel MK1 bracket but not the injection pump portion... having to modify the timing belt cover backing plate slightly...no big deal. As for the hb and serp belt setup...i prefer that compared to the v belt. Did you ditch the TDI's timing belt setup all together; the self adjusting tensioner and the deflection pulley as well? Interesting...

Glad to hear you have it on the road... soon soon. Work is beginning on my AWIC setup as well as the head and a few other pics while waiting for the tax$$ to come through...

Joe

[hillfolk'r]

in the last thread we were talking about the pump sprocket...

Your using the small shaft IDI style injection pump with the 12mm head?

I am using a modified diesel MK1 bracket but not the injection pump portion... having to modify the timing belt cover backing plate slightly...no big deal. As for the hb and serp belt setup...i prefer that compared to the v belt. Did you ditch the TDI's timing belt setup all together; the self adjusting tensioner and the deflection pulley as well? Interesting...

Glad to hear you have it on the road... soon soon. Work is beginning on my AWIC setup as well as the head and a few other pics while waiting for the tax$$ to come through...

Joe

come on joe,,git er done,,,,,,yea small shaft 12mm,,,,race 520 nozzles,,im likin that,,,iwas debating using a gas engine mount,and a ahu pump mount thatll work too,,,,um i sorta forgot to install a timing belt backing plate,,but it looks like ican  still make up some bosses to mount the upper cover to,,i have no cover on it right now,,the upper cover that is ,,the lower cover is there,,,hey heres recycling,,i cut off the big long air intake from the old ac box,,,heated it with a heat gun,,and installed it in right fender to protect belts,and relocated fuelfilter,,,,,,,too much crapto deal with for serp belt setup,,i dont have ac anyways,,,,i was gonna use auto tensioner,for tim.belt,,but i figured it would be alsoa good idea to use that little roller on pump bracket too,,,soi removed the tensioner stud,replaced it w 1.6 td one,,and amrunning a 1.6 tensioner,w/a std tdi tim.belt,,,,my motor mount uses a hd mount,,bottom half filled w/ epoxy,,,whenweight of engine mounted in the car,,it doesnt rest on the epoxy part ya know???,i really like that,,,vibes arent bad at all,,or any worse than normal hd mounts,,,,,basically iused pulleys and stuff from the 79,,im sayin get it runnin with the easier setup for belts etc,,thanlater if you  want put on the later stuff,,ibet at a glance,,some people wouldnt evenknow its a tdi,cause of pulleys etc,,,

[RabbitGTDguy]

I already have all the stuff for the serp belt setup. Only thing you need is the non-ac water pump pulley and a belt. You can buy a kit for it for 40 bucks, belt included... In the future (i have an extra MK3 accessory bracket) I'll probably convert the 79 too if i keep it. I already have the alternator though for the mTDI setup, etc.  from the MK3 application so I don't have much into it.
I'm workin as fast as I can to get it done with the funds alloted. Couple things came up here in the last few weeks with the 79 (namely the alternator because of overtightened v belts from the PO) that the funds just kinda dwindled away...plus, waiting to deliver on some parts I have from the MK2 I'm parting...
Working on the head port matching this weekend and the intake manifold though. Then...get the head back together. I've got Sprint764's to try initially as well. Want to try them and then decide from there which nozzle I really want to run once the car is running.

Joe

[TDForNow]

That's gonna be an awesome Rabbit! I'm curious though, why are you using a 4bt pump? I thought the Bosch VE would handle this. Aren't they used on the M-B 240 & 300 D/TD's?

[hillfolk'r]

i hear ya on the fundage man,,,,ive got almost 4500 in the engine/trans install stuff,,,,dont forget the lil stuff like fluids clamps,hoses all that little stuff added up,probably 100 clams or so,,,,ii had some brackets/pulleys accys hidden away,,,hardest part was finding where i hid some of the stuff on myself,,,,wish there was a smiley face that looks like "ripping hair out",just insert that one here

[RabbitGTDguy]

i hear that... the grand total is creeping up here too... 900 for the engine just initially with 126k on it...then all the stuff for the rebuild plus the modifications I've made to the pistons and the coatings as well. Still need to get the racewares...waiting to bolt on the oil pan because I think I'm going to install a windage tray first. I've really been quite lucky though. Haven't tapped into my fiancee and I's joint acct. at all...all money has been from sale/trades on stuff, etc. Which the barter system worked so well everywhere. Plus, everything on the motor is new and OEM...no cheapy's

That's gonna be an awesome Rabbit! I'm curiuos though, why are you using a 4bt pump? I thought the Bosch VE would handle this. Aren't they used on the M-B 240 & 300 D/TD's?

Yes, I am using the Cummins 4bt pump, it is a Bosch VE rotary unit though. Most people doing the mTDI conversion are using non DI specific hybrid pumps. In some cases even, a complete 1.6TD pump turned to the max. in stock form. Others, and a better solution like hillfolk'r is using a hybrid consisting of the IDI TD pump internals and smaller mainshaft with a larger 12mm head.
My setup is a mechanical pump from a DI engine already, so...IMO its better fitted to the engine and is more likely to last longer and handle the injection pressures that the TDI engine demands vs. that of the hybrid pump. Plus, in my experience hearing the hybrid pump on my friends TDI Westy Synchro run vs. when we had the 4bt pump on and installed...it was NIGHT and DAY. Just initially off the bat with the smoothness and sound of the motor but then also with the power of the motor too. His drawback was that it smokes a little much for his liking but in a Vanagon part of the problem there is now his intercooler setup is too small for the fueling he has which is soon to be answered with an AWIC setup. I also have many flow improvements as well to the intake system as well as the head which I'm working on as we speak. So...its def. going to be fun!
On a seperate note... the pumps used on Merc 300D's, etc. that I have seen were all Bosch inlines...though, i've heard of a few that were VE rotary. 4bt's came in two varieties as well... the VE and the bosch inline too Now what I'd really like to see is the electronic VP44 be fitted to a TDI engine with custom CPU programming and I'd be all over that. The VP44 can handle ALOT more injection pressure vs. that of the VE pumps that were used on the TDI motors.



Joe

[hillfolk'r]

yea do the windage tray i did,,,,,,,get the raceware main studs too,plus head studs,,thas what idid

[TDForNow]

I'm probably gonna get divorced over this!!

[RabbitGTDguy]

Def. doing the tray...just waiting for funds to come through.

Trying to find the "BEST" price on Racware studs for the head as well...haven't had much luck thus far. Did find a nice deal on yet another tranny (MK3) as well as a 6puck and reinforced PP tonight though

Joe

[TDForNow]

Yes, I am using the Cummins 4bt pump, it is a Bosch VE rotary unit though. Most people doing the mTDI conversion are using non DI specific hybrid pumps. In some cases even, a complete 1.6TD pump turned to the max. in stock form. Others, and a better solution like hillfolk'r is using a hybrid consisting of the IDI TD pump internals and smaller mainshaft with a larger 12mm head.
My setup is a mechanical pump from a DI engine already, so...IMO its better fitted to the engine and is more likely to last longer and handle the injection pressures that the TDI engine demands vs. that of the hybrid pump. Plus, in my experience hearing the hybrid pump on my friends TDI Westy Synchro run vs. when we had the 4bt pump on and installed...it was NIGHT and DAY. Just initially off the bat with the smoothness and sound of the motor but then also with the power of the motor too. His drawback was that it smokes a little much for his liking but in a Vanagon part of the problem there is now his intercooler setup is too small for the fueling he has which is soon to be answered with an AWIC setup. I also have many flow improvements as well to the intake system as well as the head which I'm working on as we speak. So...its def. going to be fun!
On a seperate note... the pumps used on Merc 300D's, etc. that I have seen were all Bosch inlines...though, i've heard of a few that were VE rotary. 4bt's came in two varieties as well... the VE and the bosch inline too Now what I'd really like to see is the electronic VP44 be fitted to a TDI engine with custom CPU programming and I'd be all over that. The VP44 can handle ALOT more injection pressure vs. that of the VE pumps that were used on the TDI motors.



Joe

Cool, but what are the "cons" to this pump. What kind of shut-down is used and what kind of cold-start assit device (eg; timing adv) does it have?

[hillfolk'r]

dont wanna burst yer bubble,but the vp44 is a piece of crap,at least the ones on isb's,,,ive changed a bunch out ,,, theres all kinds of recalls+bullitens and stuff,,,,id like to try an inline,,but may behard to get the revs out of it,,and oiling ,,and ,a few other problems i can see that would have to be dealt with,,,more power potential in a inline vs.  rotary shootout,,,but revs can be a problem,,,,i guess u would call it "plunger"float,,tougher springs can eat up cams,,,, iseen some crazy custom pumps  somewhere online,like 10-20k!!!!!!!yea jus a big chunk of billittttt,,sweettttt!!!

[RabbitGTDguy]

Yes, I am using the Cummins 4bt pump, it is a Bosch VE rotary unit though. Most people doing the mTDI conversion are using non DI specific hybrid pumps. In some cases even, a complete 1.6TD pump turned to the max. in stock form. Others, and a better solution like hillfolk'r is using a hybrid consisting of the IDI TD pump internals and smaller mainshaft with a larger 12mm head.
My setup is a mechanical pump from a DI engine already, so...IMO its better fitted to the engine and is more likely to last longer and handle the injection pressures that the TDI engine demands vs. that of the hybrid pump. Plus, in my experience hearing the hybrid pump on my friends TDI Westy Synchro run vs. when we had the 4bt pump on and installed...it was NIGHT and DAY. Just initially off the bat with the smoothness and sound of the motor but then also with the power of the motor too. His drawback was that it smokes a little much for his liking but in a Vanagon part of the problem there is now his intercooler setup is too small for the fueling he has which is soon to be answered with an AWIC setup. I also have many flow improvements as well to the intake system as well as the head which I'm working on as we speak. So...its def. going to be fun!
On a seperate note... the pumps used on Merc 300D's, etc. that I have seen were all Bosch inlines...though, i've heard of a few that were VE rotary. 4bt's came in two varieties as well... the VE and the bosch inline too Now what I'd really like to see is the electronic VP44 be fitted to a TDI engine with custom CPU programming and I'd be all over that. The VP44 can handle ALOT more injection pressure vs. that of the VE pumps that were used on the TDI motors.



Joe

Cool, but what are the "cons" to this pump. What kind of shut-down is used and what kind of cold-start assit device (eg; timing adv) does it have?

I'd really have a hard time of thinking of many cons to the pump. I suppose that to the person that can't find a "hub" from a MKIV style TDI pump to use the adjustable pulley, that would be a con. Initial setup of it (i.e. swapping out the gov. to go to the VW style gov. ) isn't that hard but to someone thats never cracked a pump before...it could be. The pump uses a standard solenoid as well as it has a mechanical shut off if you wanted to rig it up to work. I believe Deo was going to rig his up to use. As far as cold start assist. I'm not going to use mine, going to remove it as this car never sees winter or cold weather where I'd have to worry about it. Mine has a electronic cold start assist. I've seen AAZ pumps with a similar setup. Also...if someone wanted to...the mechanical cold start setup could easily be added to the pump.  Other than the initial setup, etc. I can't think of a con for it. Its a DI specific pump, plenty of fully and with the gov. swapped over , etc. it makes the TDI run so nice and smooth with PLENTY of power. There may be some merit looking into adjusting the timing advance springs to match closer to the VW rates, but you also have to take in acct. the head/plunger size as well as other things. Considering though that you can get a new 4bt pump for 500 outright new, 450 rebuilt or 250 used... its the simpliest solution IMO to make the mechanical TDI make the most power it can, yet run smoothly and still have the insurances of knowing you have a pump under the hood that is made to handle what your throwing at it.

dont wanna burst yer bubble,but the vp44 is a piece of crap,at least the ones on isb's,,,ive changed a bunch out ,,, theres all kinds of recalls+bullitens and stuff,,,,id like to try an inline,,but may behard to get the revs out of it,,and oiling ,,and ,a few other problems i can see that would have to be dealt with,,,more power potential in a inline vs. rotary shootout,,,but revs can be a problem,,,,i guess u would call it "plunger"float,,tougher springs can eat up cams,,,, iseen some crazy custom pumps somewhere online,like 10-20k!!!!!!!yea jus a big chunk of billittttt,,sweettttt!!!

Thats too bad to hear. From what I have heard the VP44 has been a great solution and is capable of much higher injection pressures than that of the VE pumps used on the TDI's from the MK3/B4 platform and onto the MKIV's as well prior to PD. Its also what they ran on the latest series of Cummins Ram's wasn't it prior to common rail?  Where are the faults? Whats going wrong with the pumps? That is very interesting...

Joe

[QuickTD]

The VP44 is a black mark on bosch's otherwise good record. The the most common failure is the rotor seizing to the head and then shearing off the drive plate. On the the dodge cummins engines, pump seizure was often hastened by faulty transfer pumps. It could also happen if the truck was run low or out of fuel. If the fuel pressure dropped below a certain level (2psi?) there was no flow through the pump for cooling, but the engine continued to run fine. The pump would fail in a short time.

The VP44 will not be used on any new designs, according to bosch, so I guess they don't like it either.

[TDForNow]

Its a DI specific pump, plenty of fully and with the gov. swapped over , etc. it makes the TDI run so nice and smooth with PLENTY of power. There may be some merit looking into adjusting the timing advance springs to match closer to the VW rates, but you also have to take in acct. the head/plunger size as well as other things. Considering though that you can get a new 4bt pump for 500 outright new, 450 rebuilt or 250 used... its the simpliest solution IMO to make the mechanical TDI make the most power it can, yet run smoothly and still have the insurances of knowing you have a pump under the hood that is made to handle what your throwing at it.

Joe

Wow. It's even a bargain compared to pricing a new or reworked VW VE pump!  I'll want the cold-start. Don't know yet if I'll pull it off the road in the winter or not, but my current TD is ugly to start w/o it on the cooler spring and fall mornings. Looks like we're (kinda) close (NH-NY), who are you using for your internal pump work? My local pump shop only does OE spec work :cry: . I can't remember if you mentioned it, but will the 4bt mount  on the VW brackets and with what mod's if any?

Thanks
Alain