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So, what's a 1.6na *really* good to? by hamradio on 17 Feb, 2009 17:05
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What is the max boost a 1.6 NA with metal HG and stock internals, and potentially a td head could handle?
I've heard numbers like 20 psi without oil squirters. Everyone says, "oh no, you can't do over 20...you need oil squirters due to higher combustion temps, etc, etc, etc."
But, in the combustion chamber, temp-wise, wouldn't 30 psi and an egt of 1000* be pretty much the same as 10 psi and 1000*?
If I'm not doing WOT 2nd gear pulls for 10 mins at a crack, I have a feeling I could get by without oil squirters.
I guess what I'm really wondering is, who around here has wrecked a 1.6na due to high boost? And of those people, what did it blow up at? I'm thinking the NA is a lot more robust than most people give it credit for.
TD engines are super rare around here, and my engine is pretty worthless as-is right now...a worn out old 1.6na that had terrible maintenance done, with a quarter of a million miles on it. I'm thinking, if I blow it...score the hell out of the cylinders or something, I can just rebore, add oil squirters, find some oversize td pistons, and be good to go.
Or perhaps I'm totally 100% wrong, and just making a fool of myself here.
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#1 by truckinwagen on 17 Feb, 2009 17:11
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I ran an old beat up N/A with a turbo for nearly a year without an EGT gauge, when I finally installed one I saw 1400*F often while driving the same way I did before I got the gauge.
when I pulled the motor apart to rebuild it(compression down to 200PSI due to bad rings - 300,000 miles on the bottom end) there was no tangible damage to the motor at all, in fact all of the bearings were still within spec, the bores were within a thousandth for round and taper and there was only a five thousandth of a ridge on it.
now I was only running 15 PSI of boost but I think the motors are built much stronger than anyone is giving them credit for.
just keep the EGT's down and the only problem you should see as you increase boost is the head lifting -
#2 by zukgod1 on 17 Feb, 2009 17:31
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I agree with the above statement, boost away my friend. just get gauges and keep the EGTs down around 1200 max and drive the piss out of it. if it was mine i would keep it at 20 psi or lower.
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#3 by truckinwagen on 17 Feb, 2009 17:36
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yep, I hammered on that poor old motor and she stood up to it all, eve the high EGT's.
this time around I am going much higher boost-wise with the same block, we will see just how much one can take! -
#4 by hamradio on 17 Feb, 2009 17:53
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I beat the snot out of my diesel all summer, with 12 psi and a vnt15. Autox, general revving the hell out of it. It took it beautifully. Running into the governor on every shift often, etc. At the end of the season I bumped it up to 15 psi. I had crazy boost spikes of 30 or so psi. No issues whatsoever until my charge piping blew up. No intercooler on anything....I would think 15 psi with no IC would be harder on it than 20 psi and a good IC?
My plan is to tig weld up a log manifold out of weld els...I was never thrilled with the size of the stock manifold. For a turbo, I'd probably run a t03/t04, or a saab 9k aero TD04. My goal would be 25-30 psi....probably 30 psi spikes. I'm not sure if the td04 can take that, though...maybe a 19t...
All in all, I can't imagine this would be less reliable than a turbo'd stock longblock gasser aba. -
#5 by dieselherb1 on 17 Feb, 2009 18:18
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Wouldn't a IC keep the EGT down?
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#6 by hamradio on 17 Feb, 2009 18:20
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To an extent, yes, as far as I know.
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#7 by 8v-of-fury on 17 Feb, 2009 19:26
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I asked a very similar question earlier this month, and what they told me is pretty much exactly the same as what you are being told here
It isn't so much the boost that kills an engine, its the heat. You can run as much boost as you can (without blowing the head off of course lol) while keeping the EGT's down and be good for a long time. If you don't hammer it on to often, and WOT to max boost then you should be able to keep the heat wayyy down. They told me of one guy who was in a similar situation where he had an older block that had already been beaten down, and meant next to nothing to him. They added a VNT I believe, big IC, and oil cooler to aid in keeping the oil as cool as possible. Apparently the thing could run 25+ all day while keeping the EGT's down around 1100 or less. Obviously the motor could reach in excess of 1500 degrees and melt everything inside of it. So it takes a very conscious driver. Like posted above, build it right and keep an eye on those gauges and it will last you for many fun-filled days :lol:
I think if you do a metal HG, and studs.. it should handle boost quite well Like you said, the N/a isn't given near as much respect that it deserves.
Jeremy -
#8 by hamradio on 17 Feb, 2009 19:31
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Speaking of vnt's, what's the vnt15 good to? 18 psi?
Would gasser head studs work on a 11mm block? -
#9 by hamradio on 17 Feb, 2009 20:21
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Quote from: "8v-of-fury"
I asked a very similar question earlier this month, and what they told me is pretty much exactly the same as what you are being told here
It isn't so much the boost that kills an engine, its the heat. You can run as much boost as you can (without blowing the head off of course lol) while keeping the EGT's down and be good for a long time. If you don't hammer it on to often, and WOT to max boost then you should be able to keep the heat wayyy down. They told me of one guy who was in a similar situation where he had an older block that had already been beaten down, and meant next to nothing to him. They added a VNT I believe, big IC, and oil cooler to aid in keeping the oil as cool as possible. Apparently the thing could run 25+ all day while keeping the EGT's down around 1100 or less. Obviously the motor could reach in excess of 1500 degrees and melt everything inside of it. So it takes a very conscious driver. Like posted above, build it right and keep an eye on those gauges and it will last you for many fun-filled days :lol:
I think if you do a metal HG, and studs.. it should handle boost quite well Like you said, the N/a isn't given near as much respect that it deserves.
Jeremy
Link to that info? I can't for the life of me find it via search. -
#10 by 8v-of-fury on 17 Feb, 2009 20:28
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Search function sucks *COUGH.. lol
I can't believe I found it! but i did, had to back track through all the post that corresponded with "Heat Kills" looool
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18312&start=0
I do believe the ranting I came up with is loosely outlined in that thread. -
#11 by Smokey Eddy on 18 Feb, 2009 00:56
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if you get a big exhaust on it and port ant polish your manifolds and head it's HARD to hit high EGT's without any kind of boost control. the more fuel, the more boost, the better flow, the less steep a climb in EGT.
I'm not saying EGT doesn't go up with added fuel & boost. Im just saying my EGTs have been abou 60-70% Hotter with the stock exhaust on it and 1/2 the boost and a full 270 degree turn OUT of the fuel screw. WIth no exhaust and just a downpipe i would run 5-8 psi on the highway in 5th at 110km.hr and the egt would be about 650. (I have a t3 so its kinda weird that there was any boost at all at that amount of fueling. As retarded as it sounds, zero exhaust is the biggest performance boost you could ever give these things. They [big exhausts] open up the options for so much more.
Now with the stock exhaust on said downpipe (for emission control reasons - dont ask) the boost stays really low or non-existant and the egts ahve gone to 1,000 with slower/longer pulls. the added power made for shorter pulls and colder EGT.
your mileage may vary though :roll:
ps. My t3 with the open flow set up would peak at 30psi with no aggressive fueling.
i also run an aaz head on a 1.6tf bottom end. That may have something to do with it but im pretty sure its the added boost and improved flow of the hardware.