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Assemling aaz w/ total seal this week. Couple Questions
by
b1rdjx88
on 19 Jan, 2009 15:58
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I'm putting together a rebuilt aaz this week. I have .5mm oversize pisotns going in with total seal gapless second rings and Goetz oil and top rings. I have been given conflicting advice on how to treat bores and pistons during assembly, and whether or not to use new rod and main bolts.
For the pistons, I was advised by the guy that did my headwork to coat the pistons and skirts with a liberal dose of 10 or 30 wt oil oil. He said he has built cars with total seal rings before and that he wouldn't do it any other way. I have read on this forum and others that the pistons and rings should be pushed into the bores dry, or with a coating of the quickseat powder on the cylinder walls. I phoned Total seal this morning and told them of my application. The tech I talked to recommended I coat everything with WD40, and nothing more. I've been warned that the heavier oil will cause glazing, or conversely that the wd40 or dry treatment will cause ring flutter and damage on startup. Could anyone else weigh in on this?
For the bolts, the machine shop recommended I reuse the old rod and main bolts. He also said that if I were to use new rod bolts, the rods would need to be machined to accept them. This goes against everything I have read on here, and my past experience. Any thoughts?
I've spent a bunch of money on this and I would hate to spoil it from bad advice.
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#1
by
jtanguay
on 19 Jan, 2009 17:05
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the AAZ comes with stretch bolts for the mains and rods. replace them, or risk having a rod go through the block.
i've used the dry lube from total seal, and i hope it will work okay. so far so good!
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#2
by
Rabbit TD
on 19 Jan, 2009 18:49
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I'm putting together a rebuilt aaz this week. I have .5mm oversize pisotns going in with total seal gapless second rings and Goetz oil and top rings. I have been given conflicting advice on how to treat bores and pistons during assembly, and whether or not to use new rod and main bolts.
For the pistons, I was advised by the guy that did my headwork to coat the pistons and skirts with a liberal dose of 10 or 30 wt oil oil. He said he has built cars with total seal rings before and that he wouldn't do it any other way. I have read on this forum and others that the pistons and rings should be pushed into the bores dry, or with a coating of the quickseat powder on the cylinder walls. I phoned Total seal this morning and told them of my application. The tech I talked to recommended I coat everything with WD40, and nothing more. I've been warned that the heavier oil will cause glazing, or conversely that the wd40 or dry treatment will cause ring flutter and damage on startup. Could anyone else weigh in on this?
For the bolts, the machine shop recommended I reuse the old rod and main bolts. He also said that if I were to use new rod bolts, the rods would need to be machined to accept them. This goes against everything I have read on here, and my past experience. Any thoughts?
I've spent a bunch of money on this and I would hate to spoil it from bad advice.
I've always oiled the rings and cylinders on an engine putting it together and so has everyone else as far back as I can remember on any engine from a lawn mower on up, even a 2 stroke. I can't imagine not having oil on those nice new pistons and rings and rotating them around the grooves before you space them apart and having to start off dry instead in a dry bore. I wouldn't even consider pushing a piston through a ring compressor new or used without plenty of lubrication. Another thing I can't imagine is why Total Seals representative didn't recomend their Quick Seat. To me if a cylinder is glazed it happened because of mileage, wasn't honed right, engine overheated, dirty oil or any combination of them. As soon as the engine starts spinning oil gets up in those areas anyway and if it doesn't get there it's going to seize pretty quick. As far as your main and connecting rod studs are conecrned I wouldn't give a second thought about using them again unless they were damaged some way if this is a daily driven car and isn't going to be a monster motor or something. I've never changed one in my life unless there was a known problem with it. I know their will probably be some replies contraty to this but until either God, Ferdinand Porsche or Henry Ford says don't oil the hell out of pistons and cylinders, I'm gonn keep on doing it. That's what your machine shop guy does and he knows pistons are pistons and rings are rings, new ones are better but they all need oil in the beggining and if the oil scraper doesn't take off the excess they aren't any good in the first place.
I just read TJ's post and he said about those being stretch bolts, if they are indead stretch bolts then yes I definately would replace them and probably with ARP studs if a stretch bolt is in there now but I'd make sure first.
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#3
by
b1rdjx88
on 20 Jan, 2009 06:51
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Jtangauy, did you use only the quickseat, or did you oil them too?
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#4
by
the caveman
on 20 Jan, 2009 06:55
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I've built up 3 engines now by using the dry ring set-up. Rings break in fast and i'll do it again. I can see how having the rings soaked in oil will cause them to glaze and not seat as fast. Every motor i did before where i would use the typical way of oiling everything up would have the effect of having the motor smoke for 15-20 minutes before it settled down. Dry rings-no smoke-faster break in. I did it on my own 2.2 liter 71 beetle and i had perfect compression
after i had done the initial break in of 20 minutes. Done were 2 gasser hi-po air cooled VW's and 1 AAZ.
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#5
by
Fisher
on 20 Jan, 2009 10:29
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I agree, I wash down the Cylinders and Pistons and Rings with Brake Cleaner and install dry. Done it on lots of VW Diesels. Never a problem.
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#6
by
arb
on 20 Jan, 2009 10:51
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On a rebuilt / reman I always mix 50/50 engine oil with STP oil treatment and coat every moving part with this thick very sticky stuff.
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#7
by
truckinwagen
on 20 Jan, 2009 11:45
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I would rather use Lucas Oil additive rather than STP, my grampa and uncle have many stories of the crap that STP leaves inside the motor.
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#8
by
jtanguay
on 20 Jan, 2009 12:45
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Jtangauy, did you use only the quickseat, or did you oil them too?
i had a machine shop do it for me. the block was hot tanked, and the guy seemed to know about it, as i briefly spoke to him about it. i left the instructions so hopefully he took a look at them :lol: they say it has to be put on the bores which must be clean of all oil, debris, and water. thats probably why there is a recommendation for use of WD-40 (i dont recall total seal having that in their instructions though). i wouldn't let the WD-40 run into my oil pan though...
the idea of using oil to install piston rings does make sense, as it would be much easier, and less chance of anything breaking, but at the same time, it would make it a hell of a lot harder for the rings to break in. if done dry, i would assume there to be more of a chance of ring breakage from trying to force it into the bore.
the rings are going to wear no matter what... whether you install them wet or dry. but why not accelerate the wear so they fit the same of the bore faster, to reduce blowby and increase compression??? :wink: and dont worry. by the time the rings start wearing in, the oil will be splashed onto the bores. this makes the dry film lube a very attractive option
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#9
by
arb
on 20 Jan, 2009 12:59
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I would rather use Lucas Oil additive rather than STP, my grampa and uncle have many stories of the crap that STP leaves inside the motor.
Yeah, I _only_ use STP for this initial build and diluted 50/50. This gets dumped at the first 3,000 oil change.
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#10
by
arb
on 20 Jan, 2009 13:03
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Jtangauy, did you use only the quickseat, or did you oil them too?
i had a machine shop do it for me. the block was hot tanked, and the guy seemed to know about it, as i briefly spoke to him about it. i left the instructions so hopefully he took a look at them :lol: they say it has to be put on the bores which must be clean of all oil, debris, and water. thats probably why there is a recommendation for use of WD-40 (i dont recall total seal having that in their instructions though). i wouldn't let the WD-40 run into my oil pan though...
Did the block get washed with soap and water after the machine work ? I always take mine to a manual car wash and completely pressure wash it inside and out. Then, blast it with WD-40 to prevent the rust from forming on freshly cleaned metal. This process gets all the grit from the scratches the hone leaves in the walls.
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#11
by
zukgod1
on 20 Jan, 2009 13:54
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Brake clean the bores, apply quickseat, install pistons and run it.
I have about 8k on it at this point, the blowby is still almost nil.
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#12
by
monomer
on 20 Jan, 2009 15:24
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Brake clean the bores, apply quickseat, install pistons and run it.
I have about 8k on it at this point, the blowby is still almost nil.
thats not enough.
Use TIDE brand laundry soap. wash three times, use only cotton to wipe clean.
thats if you machine shop didnt use tide, as most do (it's an old school trick, nothing works better for the price)
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#13
by
Dakotakid
on 20 Jan, 2009 17:39
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For what it's worth, I recently put the second of three rebuilds into action. I was quite liberal with 5/30 to wet down the cylinders prior to setting on the head. It did seem to take longer to get these rings to seat...but, they did get there.
I am willing to do a dry stroke on an old dirt bike engine, but I've got a bit more effort and bread invested in one of these blocks.
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#14
by
Rabbit TD
on 20 Jan, 2009 18:56
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The thing that I don't understand about thinking oil is bad for a new ring is, if oil is that bad for a ring to seat right, quick, or whatever term you want then I think we better think about putting something different in the crankcase to begin with. Again, it gets on the cylinders as soon as the engine starts spinning and again that's what the oil control ring is for. Quick Seat , oil, STP, Lucas, asembly lube, whatever, it's all a lubricant and just protects the parts till the oil gets on them anyway. The machine shop people aren't boring an engine to a .001 clearance and telling you to put them in dry are they? I'm probably sure you could put the pistons in dry and luck out and be OK till the oil hits the cyl if it starts right off the bat but how long do you want them dragging up an down in there till it gets on them while your trying to figure out your fuel problem, ect? Point is, You can probably run Naked through a burning room if the doors are open and not get burned too bad if your'e fast enough. But I'm old and slow and when I tryit I'm gonna have some water on my ass :lol: