Is it supposed to smoke this much? - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Is it supposed to smoke this much? by voodoo on 30 Dec, 2008 19:57
• Is it supposed to smoke this much?
  
  my car smokes massively at idle, cloud of smoke that covers the car, cannot see the car under the cloud,  smoke does not stop when it is warm, how do I fix this? switch injection pump?  
  
  Ive been fighting with this pos for 2 years and I have just got it running  this week I really don't know how it is supposed to run.
  
  injection pump has 300000 miles
  
  injectors rebuilt last week with bottle jack tester
  
  thinking of adding a turbo to clean up the smoke, I don't know how to make it go away.
  
  air temperature 25 degrees f
  
  Jetta III looks nice on the inside and outside, handles great, no electrical system... cut the computer gremlins right out. none of the lights worked, nothing worked.  
  
   electrical system is hotwire glow plugs, starter, pump cut off and nothing else
  
  1.6L idi  no turbo, driven 20 miles, just built last week.
  
  new cast pistons $400.   that will NEVER happen again.
  
  block done by the best Chevy machine shop in town
  
  rods rebuilt
  
  head redone with new valves guides and seals.
  
  3" exhaust
  
  91 passat 02A transmission with hydraulic clutch, 3:1 final drive after overdrive, freeway is nice.
• #1 by zukgod1 on 30 Dec, 2008 20:06
• Sounds like a nice car.
  What color is the smoke?
• #2 by Rabbit TD on 30 Dec, 2008 21:16
• I sure wouldn't be thinking about a turbo at this point.  I doubt if they make one big enough to cure that much fuel smoke :cry:  if that's where it's coming from.  Did you ever see this motor run before you or whoever rebuilt it, I'm just wondering if the pump was working when you got it?  From all the things you listed there are a lot of things that could cause problems if they weren't machined or instaled right like breaking a ring putting the pistons in, things like that.  I'm just sitting here visualizing this and I see a car that the injectors are hanging up on or the pump needs rebuilt and or needs adjusted or isn't timed right which is a big posibility.  After all you did the first thing I would do is a compression check to see if all your cylinders are all pretty equal, I'd be looking for in the neighborhood of 400 lbs.  If that's OK then you know it's a fuel problem, assuming it's timed right, which could also ffect compression if it's off enough .  This was a gas car before didn't you say?  Do you have a cold start cable hooked up and adjusted right? I doubt if there are any fuel draw problems from the tank the way it sounds and that you have a new filter element.  Then take your fuel filter off and fill it up with some transmission fluid, injector cleaner, diesel fuel mixture, don't go real heavy on the injector cleaner in the filter though, with some in the tank too and try to get it started and drive it if you can to see if it makes any difference to unstick something after a while. I'm betting first it's just out of time, injectors hanging up, or pump problems in that order.  I hope you can get it fixed because you should have a nice motor.  Forget the turbo for now and get the timing tools, compression gauge, Bentley book if you don't have one. If you don't have those things you can't do anything other than bolt stuff together with these diesels.   You can't troubleshoot things because you will never know where you are at for sure without them, I've tried and I have them all now.  #1 copression, #2 fuel #3 fuel at the right time {timing} #4 right amount of fuel, in that order. Good Luck On Your Car  and let us know how you made out with it.  
• #3 by Vincent Waldon on 30 Dec, 2008 21:40
• What color is the smoke, and what setting did you set the pump timing to?  :wink:
• #4 by Rabbit TD on 30 Dec, 2008 21:49
• I forgot to ask, what was or is the problem with the pistons :?:
• #5 by rabbitman on 30 Dec, 2008 23:48
• Does the smoke smell like diesel, oil or antifreeze?
  I don't know how it could be injecting so much fuel at idle that you get a cloud around it.
  
  The only thing I ever saw that smoked that bad was a vw diesel pickup that mustuv had a bad HG, it actually blew a geyser out the coolant bottle, and the steam coming out the tailpipe made a cloud that hid the truck.
• #6 by Rabbit TD on 31 Dec, 2008 01:50
• From here it sounds like there are so many variables there from when it was machined, with or without the pistons for the machinist to use as a guide to get the right clearance, wether something went wrong putting it together 2 years later, wether the pump was or is any good, are the injectors really right, is it timed right with the cold start in the off position, if it even works or even has one, bad fuel from sitting and on,and on. This is how it sounds on this end but I'm not there but if that's the way things are you have to check the things in order or just start changing parts that might not need changing. You first have to do a compression check, we know it gets fuel but what kind, good or bad from sittng, when it gets it ,the timing should be real close to 1.0m/m with the cold start in the warm or off position .  Then you need to look in the cooling reservoir to see if you are getting any bubbles and if you are then you have a leaking headgasket at least or maby worse. Was the head pressure tested, was  the block magnafluxed to check for cracks at the machine shop it could be cracked, we dont know yet for sure what the smoke is fuel, oil or water of acombination of any of them and with the old pump anything is up fo grabs if anybody ever rebuilt it or mesed with the fuel screws and what not.  Nothing can be done other than to troubleshoot it in the correct order to start eleminating some of these possibilities or variables which are unknown at this point.  This can all be checked in an hour or so if you just have the compression gauge and the injector pump lock pin and the dial indcator and somethng to lock the cam in the back slot. I have the pin but you can use a deepwell socket and just use a file or something that fits in the cam slot very good.  If that's all ok but it still smokes then try to borrow some known good injectors, don't worry about the {new}sealing discs yet, just use the old ones for now and see if that helps at all.  Then you are left with a bunch of possible pump problems which I know nothing about from experience  other than to reseal the shaft and timing it but am slowly learning here.  You might have just one problem or many, but you have to start eleminating them in the right sequence one at a time and you will get there and have learned a whole lot.  Maby to get away from these things all together before this addiction we have gets worse and it will, I know mine has
• #7 by voodoo on 31 Dec, 2008 02:00
• I think its injection pump timing. its was set at 1mm 20 miles ago, the engine bogs at most speeds under about 3000 rpm.   I will mess with the smoke screw and the idle speed screws  tomorrow.  the pump may be worn out, the odometer on the rabbit corpse the pump came from read 300,000 miles.  
  
  the engine has no blow by, there is no pressure coming out of the vent on the valve cover, the oil is still mostly clear with little soot.
  
  the rings are fine, I built the motor very carefully. the engine purrs, and the car will do 70 on the freeway .
  
  I don't have a compression tester but I may make one.
  
  I spent hours adjusting the valves with the head off the engine. when the engine is running the valve ticking is right on
  
  it has a mls 1.9 aaz head gasket, the head gasket does not leak there are no bubbles coming out of the coolant tank and no oil in the coolant.
  
   the exhaust smells like  nauseous diesel. the smoke is grey color.  freeway off ramp after the engine is at full temp the smoke is less but  still makes a large cloud around the car.  
  
  it is below freezing here all day
  
  maybe a hotter temperature thermostat?
  
  the problem with the pistons is the way too  high price.
  random selection of 8 forged pistons for a chevy $289http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_sub.php?id=141
  
  four cast pistons for obsolete vw $400 and that was after shopping, some places wanted $200 for one vw piston with rings.
• #8 by dillenger1 on 31 Dec, 2008 04:48
• It sounds like it needs advance.
• #9 by burn_your_money on 31 Dec, 2008 13:16
• What method did you use to convert the mechanical block to use the AAZ headgasket?
  
  It does sound like the timing is retarded.
  
  Does the smoke burn your eyes?
• #10 by Vincent Waldon on 31 Dec, 2008 13:45
• Quote from: "libbybapa"

  Quote from: "libbybapa"

  Are there air bubbles in the fuel inlet?

  
  
  and/or
  
  

  Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"

  what setting did you set the pump timing to?  

  
  
  because
  
  

  Quote from: "burn_your_money"

  
  It does sound like the timing is retarded.
  
• #11 by Rabbit TD on 31 Dec, 2008 17:26
• I just read your last post and it sounds like you have a pretty good motor, a lot of things I was wondering about are already answered and I think it is timing or fuel related too now.  One thing though, did you make sure the cold start lever was in the off position when you timed it, but then that would mean it would be more advanced now if it wasn't in the right position and I don't know how they act if they are too advanced.  Onething did worry me today when I was working on my motor was I think I told that guy last night to try a set of known good injectors and not worry about the sealing discs yet.  What I meant to say was don't worry about getting a new set just to try this.  And I thought, damn I hope he doesn't put his injectors back in with no sealing discs at all.  I know you wouldn't do it from how your last post described things though, I already edited it to say what I meant so somebody else might try that and did't understand.  As cold as you say it is that would make a difference while it was warming up especially with a new motor and all but should be okay after it got warm.  The first thing I would check now is the timing again just to make sure and then some different injectors if you can get them somewhere just to try them and then you would be down to the pump for the last thing.  I'm not going to say anything about pumps because I've never gotten into them or even turned a fuel screw yet other than the ide stop but there are lots of people here that do all the time and can help you and I'll pick up somethin too, that's what's nice about this forum, it helps everybody.  Something I wouldn't do though and maby I shouldn't say it but I would not buy one of those pumps from one of those prothe sites if you decide to buy one, or any of those internal parts, nozzles ect.  There are a lot of stories on here about the low quality Chinese parts being made for these things today.  I saw that stuff in the beggining and almost went for it and luckily I stumbled onto this forum and found out some things.  I'm sure a lot of that stuff is fine but lapped fit tolerances and stuff made out of who knows what kind of metal ain't for me on pumps, injectors and turbos.  Get those tools though, you will be using that timing tool a lot more than you think.  Check with Harbor Freight at their website, ther'es nothing wrong with 99% of their stuff.  It ain't Snap-ON but I don't need Snap-ON for what they want for their stuff and some of it isn't any better anyway.  I might try a Chinese tool but not a pump :lol:  P.S. Check out Parts Place and get one oftheir catalogues, I've gotten tons of thngs from them and their stuff is fine, 2 Master Rebuild kits  and al sorts of things so far and no complaints.  Most isn't German but we couldn't afford all German could we, but they haven't went Chinese yet  
• #12 by voodoo on 01 Jan, 2009 13:07
• thank you
  
  re-timed the injection pump more advanced, all of the smoke went away at idle, the engine started almost instantly, the shaking itself to pieces went away, the beautiful diesel clatter noise showed up for the first time.
  
  tiny puff of black smoke when engine is revved and that is it.
  
  I think it was dieseling on unburned fuel from the previous cycle
  
  I only moved the ip 1/4" more advanced
  
  
  aaz headgasket was used with metal shim  circle thinner than the headgasket that fit in the other drainback hole with many pockmarks from pointy punch to grab and ultra silicone sealant filler but only at the drainback hole and nowhere else.  instructions from headgasket read; "use no sealant "and I did not use any anywhere else.  headgasket appears to have teflon coating for sealing and needs nothing else.
• #13 by Rabbit TD on 01 Jan, 2009 20:38
• Quote from: "voodoo"

  thank you
  
  re-timed the injection pump more advanced, all of the smoke went away at idle, the engine started almost instantly, the shaking itself to pieces went away, the beautiful diesel clatter noise showed up for the first time.
  
  tiny puff of black smoke when engine is revved and that is it.
  
  I think it was dieseling on unburned fuel from the previous cycle
  
  I only moved the ip 1/4" more advanced
  
  
  aaz headgasket was used with metal shim  circle thinner than the headgasket that fit in the other drainback hole with many pockmarks from pointy punch to grab and ultra silicone sealant filler but only at the drainback hole and nowhere else.  instructions from headgasket read; "use no sealant "and I did not use any anywhere else.  headgasket appears to have teflon coating for sealing and needs nothing else.

  
  
  Man that is great, I can almost feel all those new parts working together like they should and starting like that.  I was hoping you didn't have any pump or injector problems.  I've had 3 of these things and never had a pump problem yet other than the shaft seal and they aren't hard to fix.  I hope this T/D pump on my motor I'm building is good, I never heard it run.  Still do yourself a favor though and at least get the timing gauge, if nothing else just to know where you are right now with timing for future reference.  I used to do the scribe mark thing but after you do it with a gauge you will see how sensitive that movement is and a scribe mark is about as accurate as a 4 inch paint brush for future reference to be acurate. Look at it like this, now that you don't have to change the pump or injectors you can get the timing and compression gauge and still be way ahead of the game and you will be using them for comparison and troubleshooting reasons.  You will be going the turbo route, changing fuel settings and such, it's like I said before, "You have the VW Diesel disease and it's only gonna get worse" :lol:  I'm really glad you got your motor running right, it sounds like gonna be a good one now.