Author Topic: She won't start.... (Read 8825 times)

avocado · « **on:** December 19, 2008, 05:58:41 pm »

I took a 1Z engine and added a Tintin M-TDI pump to it. Put the whole works in a Zuki Sidekick. After a lot of work, I am finally ready to get it to start.

I removed the glow plugs and cracked all of the fuel injection lines. Cranked until I saw fuel at the lines. Tightened the lines and reinstalled the glows. I tested the glow plugs and 2 of the 4 are bad. Should not be an issue anyway since temps are in the high 50's here in Ca...right?

Anyway, I've got +12V to the IP solenoid, fuel, 2/4 glow plugs working, I can get the lock pin in the IP lock at TDC. Only thing I can think of now would be to take off the valve cover and make extra sure that the cam is in place at TDC with the lobes up...and get the pump set (with a gauge) at 1mm lift at TDC...

When starting, the engine sounds like it is kinda going to start, but it just bounces around and coughs. I get a good bit of white nasty smoke that does not really smell like burnt diesel.

Any other ideas?

After all this work, I was hoping that it would kick right over.....mebbe not.

vwt4 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2008, 06:27:29 pm »

Quote from: "avocado"

I took a 1Z engine and added a Tintin M-TDI pump to it. Put the whole works in a Zuki Sidekick. After a lot of work, I am finally ready to get it to start.

I removed the glow plugs and cracked all of the fuel injection lines. Cranked until I saw fuel at the lines. Tightened the lines and reinstalled the glows. I tested the glow plugs and 2 of the 4 are bad. Should not be an issue anyway since temps are in the high 50's here in Ca...right?

Anyway, I've got +12V to the IP solenoid, fuel, 2/4 glow plugs working, I can get the lock pin in the IP lock at TDC. Only thing I can think of now would be to take off the valve cover and make extra sure that the cam is in place at TDC with the lobes up...and get the pump set (with a gauge) at 1mm lift at TDC...

When starting, the engine sounds like it is kinda going to start, but it just bounces around and coughs. I get a good bit of white nasty smoke that does not really smell like burnt diesel.

Any other ideas?

After all this work, I was hoping that it would kick right over.....mebbe not.

Whats this tintin TDi pump then?

I dont know the effect of that on the 1z but I would say you should check the timing of

1/ flywheel TDC mark

2/ camshaft

3/ injection Pump

Make sure it is all setup perfectly and give it another go. If its a used engine i would also change the timing belt if it was me :wink:

burn_your_money · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2008, 06:29:55 pm »

Sounds like you either need more advance or to fix those glowplugs, or both.

Start by checking the cam/crank timing though. Also, make sure nothing is 180 out

avocado · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2008, 06:40:19 pm »

Should it run without the final gauge adjustment on the IP as long as everything else is set?

The only other problem that I might have would be my verification of TDC mark.....I got the engine without the trans bellhousing, so I took a probe and felt TDC at several points on either side of TDC and found the middle of those points and marked it. I was pretty meticulous about it, so I have a hard time believing that is the problem.....but you never know.

I also changed the TB et al when the engine was out of the car and made sure it was all set up right. I may have made a mistake, so I will check again.

Why must everything be a fight......uh.

avocado · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2008, 09:46:44 pm »

well I went back and verified that the cam locking plate tool goes into place perfect when the pump and crank are at TDC. Also that the lobes are up on #1 at TDC.

I tried with the pump a bit retarded and a bit advanced but I get the same result.....foul smelling white smoke and an engine that bounces all over the engine bay. FWIW, it cranks very smoothly when I disconnect the 12V from the IP solenoid.

So what must it be?

The only other thing that I can think of is that I do not have proper TDC, but if the method I used before did not work, what can I do now? Screwed? I was so thorough when I did that part b/c I knew how important it was......

One more thought.....since the crank has two #1 TDC's, does it matter which one the cam and IP is timed to? Just as long as it is properly timed to either one, it should work, right?

Anyone know of a good place in the San Diego area to take this thing to? I think I'm against a wall.

:oops:

burn_your_money · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2008, 06:18:03 am »

Have you talked to Tintin about it?

You should start by eliminating the glowplug possibility before spending money at a shop. It'll be the first thing they try

avocado · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2008, 06:35:50 am »

OK, Ill get all 4 glow plugs working and try again.

Any thoughts on this: One more thought.....since the crank has two #1 TDC's, does it matter which one the cam and IP is timed to? Just as long as it is properly timed to either one, it should work, right?

That is in the back of my mind.

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2008, 09:45:21 am »

For the purposes of timing, TDC is defined as:

- piston #1 is at the very top of its travel (TDC mark on flywheel aligned with pointer on bell housing). That only takes place at one point in the crankshaft's rotation.
- the camshaft is locked, with both valves for cylinder #1 closed and both lobes on the camshaft for #1 pointed up
- injection pump is locked with the locking pin in place.

That's the initial setup.. the dial indicator is then used to set the exact timing value.

Common ways this gets messed up are:

- flywheel installed wrong, so that the TDC mark doesn't mean piston 1 is at the top of its travel
- some injection pump sprockets have two holes that the timing locking pin can fit into

Both of the above can result in the symptoms you describe, so might be worth checking further.

madmedix · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2008, 10:42:07 am »

This may be out there to some, but it made my Golf go through 2 owners who dumped this car in desperation because it wouldn't start. I fixed it in 20 minutes...I had to laugh when I saw it because both PO's made a point of mentioning the timing was right on etc, and it even had a new cold start cable...which the original genius had soaked in soldering flux and soldered it nice, shiny and rigid...and prevented the cold advance the IP for gripping it properly = would not start. I could use it easily in the cab (in/out) and you could see the cable move in and out at the end but it was just a little to dark down the back of the IP to notice that the advance arm wasn't moving very much. Wanted to start but couldn't. I Changed it out and she starts on the first turn......

I have also seen a cold start cable that was not secured on its trip through the engine compartment and pulling it in and out just made the cable change its bent position, hardly any movement at the IP as well.

Shine a light down there and have someone work it sitting it the cab and make sure it's really moving well at the IP.

Cheers,
Andy

avocado · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2008, 11:16:17 am »

Vincent....I had no way to verify TDC as I bought the engine alone with no transmission. I took a probe and carefully marked the flywheel where it made contact with my probe on either side of TDC. Took the measurement and went for the exact middle. Did this twice and the two measurements were within 1 mm of eachother, very, very close. I then made a pointer and put a mark on the harmonic balancer in order to give me TDC. Maybe I need to do this over again...? I just don't think it was off much.

Does anyone have a better method of finding TDC without the FW mark?

I guess I could get something and thread it into place and let the piston rest against it.....more concrete than my last method.....

Andy....i don't think this pump has a cold start adjustment...if it did....where would it be?

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2008, 12:50:58 pm »

Quote from: "avocado"

Vincent....I had no way to verify TDC as I bought the engine alone with no transmission. I took a probe and carefully marked the flywheel where it made contact with my probe on either side of TDC. Took the measurement and went for the exact middle. Did this twice and the two measurements were within 1 mm of eachother, very, very close. I then made a pointer and put a mark on the harmonic balancer in order to give me TDC. Maybe I need to do this over again...? I just don't think it was off much.

Nope, I think that's a perfectly accurate way to do it.... at least on the flywheel side.

The harmonic damper as a significantly smaller radius so one could suspect that the mark on that side might be a bit less accurate to line up against... but I'd think it would get you close enough to at least get it running.

Does your IP sprocket have two holes for the pump lock ? It really sounds like it's a long way out of tune.

avocado · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2008, 04:08:40 pm »

Ya, I was thinking that since the Harmonic balancer is smaller than the FW, it would have to be less accurate, but if it does not even sputter that puts me at a loss.

There is only one pump locking place.....it is easy to find too. The only good thing about this is that the TB area is pretty accessible in this vehicle.

I guess it is off to the shop on monday.

avocado · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2008, 04:59:32 pm »

More thoughts:

Any chance that my MTDI pump is not set to properly work with the stock injectors I have in the car? Maybe the pop pressures are too far off?

Any chance that there is a different injector line pattern between the pump and the stock 1Z? IE injector's being mismatched to the output nipples on the pump? I think this one is a long shot...

I guess I will have to pull the #1 injector out and crank the engine by hand. I should get a squirt of fuel when the #1 lobes are pointed up.

Any other ideas?

Tintin · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2008, 06:37:44 am »

If there is a white smoke when cranking the engine, that mean the injector can open and fuel is injected.

Be sure for the firing order: 1 - 3 - 4 - 2

Nothing cloged in the intake?

avocado · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2008, 11:20:29 am »

OK, I took off the injector lines and rotated the engine by hand. I can see a little squirt of fuel at each cylinder at roughly the same time the lobes are pointed up. At first, I rotated the engine 6 times and never saw fuel coming from the #1 injector. All of the others dripped fuel immediately. After many more turns, fuel finally started dripping from #1. I put the injector on #3 and pulled it out of the hole to see when it fired, but I never was able to see any fuel from it. Maybe I am not able to turn it fast enough by hand? My next test is to advance the timing by one tooth on the pump and see what happens. That does not seem right, as I already have tested the timing at several stages of advance (now at full advance) and it always behaved the same.

Does my little lock pin at TDC mean anything?