Author Topic: PD/VE compression ratio dilemma (Read 16975 times)

oldskool rich · « **Reply #15 on:** November 13, 2008, 08:37:59 pm »

ok so i cant bring myself to do the gasket

since it will now have the same cr as a 2.016v PD how much do i need to drop it to run 40psi easily, without causing myself starting trouble :roll: ?

snakemaster · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2008, 02:52:49 pm »

why dont you fit the pd head and put tdi injectors in it , and fit a pump bracket for a ve pump , and run a ve pump ,

CR things you need to work out ( cc in the pd head )
(cc in the ahu head )

are the pistons flat exaept from the bowl and sit flush at TDC if so what are the cc in the bowl

whats the CR of a PD motor
whats the CR of a 1z or ahu i think it is 17.5 --19 to 1

if you get some figurs we will try to help you out

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2008, 05:54:34 pm »

Quote from: "snakemaster"

why dont you fit the pd head and put tdi injectors in it , and fit a pump bracket for a ve pump , and run a ve pump ,

You can't "fit the pd head and put tdi injectors" in it... Pumpe Deuse injectors are internal to the head itself, under the valve cover, piezo style injectors that are electronically controlled by a couple of pumps...as well as other bits *so as to not get into too much detail*. You can't run a PD head, with VE TDI injectors, a VE pump, bracket, etc. Two ENTIRELY different beasts as far as the head goes.

The VWMS figure, and ceramic coating would securely allow you to run 40psi. I wouldn't hesitate on my mk1's mtdi right now running that... when you think about how long a run at 40psi would be, it would only be a short burst...nothing sustained.

Additionally, my only worry would be low end torque and rods...but with the PD rods, you should be ok. Larger turbo will push that psi/torque a bit later in the band *though you are running a VNT if I remember correctly...so that changes that* so, I wouldn't worry about the rods as well.

Joe

snakemaster · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2008, 06:21:27 pm »

i know that the PD is unlike the TDI , but under neath it is still a engine , the PDs injectors could be replaced with tdi injectors , may take a bit of work clamp them down and a seal to the head, it dont mater that the injectors are internal to the head , under the rocker cover , there is all was ways round things , i am not saying it is going to be easy but i think it could be done , theres a vauxhall vectra 2.0l turbo DI 16v with injectors under the rocker cover

if some one would like to donate a PD i would have a go at M TDI-PDing it

oldskool rich · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2008, 10:39:08 pm »

theres no way that you could make the 16v head work with tdi injectors, trust me i wud of if i cud. the injectors are opperated by the camshaft and wud be in the way of any modification

TBH the PD is a real nice bit of kit the only thing that puts me off is the cost of wen things go wrong and i hate electrics

the fastest 8v in the UK is a mk2 golf m-tdi with a T28 owned by diesel central my goal is to beet it so it must be 8v, i will be running a T22

the 16v PD head is flat, so is mine, the valves are also flat, do you think i shouldnt bother lowering my CR?

why should i ceramic coat my pistons? do you realy think it makes that much difference?

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #20 on:** November 14, 2008, 10:41:49 pm »

I don't think you understand "how" the PD operates. Yes...it is an "engine", but take a look...
Couldn't find a pic of the 16v 2.0 PD head...but the 8v gives a simple idea of the complexity of the task...
PD injectors...

Which are in part operated by the cam as well as electronics...hence the spring...

So...assuming you could account for that. You would then need to run lines from the VE pump, through the valve cover seal, to get it to seal with injection lines from the pump, account for the hold down clamp for the VE style injector, find some sort of return line to run between those injectors that will hold up inside the cylinder head? Eh...alot of senseless work for what already is a very well built, robust and solid motor. Electronics at that point...and far before that point would make a TON more sense.

Not to put you down or anything, but this idea is about as crazy as the reverse engineering of the VR6 motor into a "TDI". Hey, if the money is there though, go for it! It'd be great to see.

Much easier routes to go though.

Joe

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2008, 10:54:38 pm »

We must have posted at the same time. Similar comments.

You can do what you want...but with everything you want to throw at this motor and if not going the correct route of lower CR to account for the extra boost that you want to run and still have a decent reliable motor...ceramic coating the tops of the pistons at the very least for what on this side of the pond amounts to about 100.00 USD , its just plain CHEAP insurance that you don't stress, fracture or crack the pistons in the common places that the TDI pistons are known to do so...which, is close to the combustion chamber bowl/lip.

I'm not going to say "yes, this will happen" or "no this won't" if you do/don't lower compression, ceramic coat, etc. etc. There are just simply good ways, right ways and insurance to protect your "investment" in the end when it comes to double/tripling the power output of motor such as these. I prefer, "do it once...and do it right". Lowering compression slightly will allow you to raise your boost without worries with the only side effect really being a little bit more cold start smoke. Nothing major. I can run just about WHATEVER advance on want on my setup and have no worries about what I throw at it come next year once there is a good tranny in the car, and the car responds to that as well. Can something still break? Yes. Will it break if you don't mod compression, ceramic coat, etc. etc.? Not sure...maybe not. There are a ton of different ways out there.

I remember Central's TDI, I chatted with Simon several times over on TDIClub as well as (what I believe) to be the new owner of the car itself. I believe it was a straight stock motor with the extra bits like the turbo, nozzles, hybrid pump, etc. However, I remember it also throwing a rod, more mods done I believe, etc. Not even sure if that actual motor is still around at this point.

May have to inquire.

Joe

jtanguay · « **Reply #22 on:** November 14, 2008, 10:55:23 pm »

since the 16V has dual cam's, do the PD injectors on those heads shoot straight down the middle???

even stock the 16V 2.0 TDI engines are beasts!!! like tintin's saying its not really that hard to get going as you might expect... as long as the immobilizer is deleted of course :lol:

hook that thing up with a good tune/map, huge turbo... and you will be breaking either tranny's or driveshafts left right and center :twisted:

don't forget the PD's were built to withstand some serious boost... 40-50 psi is nothing for them... but i wonder what their breaking point is??? :twisted:

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #23 on:** November 14, 2008, 11:09:42 pm »

that would be interesting to find out. If I had a PD coming my way, I would give up my mTDI obsession (or def. run the PD in my daily). More mechanical parts= more things to break in the end. We have seen that with camplates, rotors, pistons, rods, etc. etc. in some cases and you just have a hard time getting up to and surpassing the power that the PD potentially has, etc. Now the CR motors...that'll be really interesting to see!

I don't think he is going to go electronics though because of what he said above regarding wanting to challenge being the fastest 8v, etc. deal.

Joe

jtanguay · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2008, 12:51:32 am »

i wouldn't expect a 16v PD engine to be cheap anytime soon, but how much do they run? of course without the ECU & harness it's a real pain tracking everything down... unless you enjoy getting it from the stealership... no lube either :shock: :lol:

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #25 on:** November 15, 2008, 09:43:44 am »

The ALH ECU, etc. could be made to run the PD if I remember something Martin said at one point. Ultimately back when I knew I wanted to convert my b3 to TDI, I wanted to find a 16v 2.0 PD motor from a passat when they were stateside here....but that is
1. Super expensive...last one I saw was about 3k...which far more than what I have into my motor and rebuild on the current mTDI motor I'm building fot it
2. Hard to find...most the PD's out there are the standard 110's.

Joe

oldskool rich · « **Reply #26 on:** November 15, 2008, 08:52:59 pm »

i have no problem getting 16vPD the VW breakers yard that i work at has 20+ if anyone is after one. im trying to get as much power out of an 8v as i can.

im just realy unlucky with electrics and im not prepared to try building one of these until ive masterd the VE

ok still not sure what to take off the pistons, was thinking quater of a mm and then ceramic coat, i dont have the money ATM but i will wait until i do :roll:

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #27 on:** November 15, 2008, 11:15:26 pm »

Really? Damn, I wonder... what can you get one for complete? and i'm wondering how much it would cost to get it here!

Joe

jtanguay · « **Reply #28 on:** November 15, 2008, 11:48:25 pm »

hmmmmm we should find a way to get these over to this continent... how much for a complete engine? do you have them with ECU's as well as wiring or just pulls from wrecked cars???

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #29 on:** November 16, 2008, 10:39:05 am »

yes...please...please...this could change my project potential (for the 'rado) completely.

Joe