Injection Timing, WTF? Help needed

[Jet A]

I am to the point where i am timing the engine. I cant get the pin to lock the IP to go into the hole. there are two brackets on the backside, on is a L bracket, the other is the IP bracket. It looks more like a butcrack than it does a round hole. Is this the way its supposed to be, whats going on?
I can get the pin partway in, but its all floppy and i can move the gear about 5degrees or so (guessing)

How do you get the engine tdc without the tranny installed, and without the vw tool? is there a trick?

And....how do you set belt tension without that tool? any ROT's?

Side note, I have the bently manual.
Also, after i installed all new 4 pistons and rings, i noticed i am unable to  turn the motor over by hand. it put a crow bar on the flywheel tooth and wedge agains the engine stand, it was tough before, but impossble now, should i worry? The bolts on the engine stand are pinned against the flywheel, i am hoping the additional weight has just prevented this, and not my own doing somwhere.

(also stripped out the first couple of threads in the crankshaft gear :evil: that made me pretty happy!) I am beging to think my vw does like me.

[Vincent Waldon]

The pictures here may help:

http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

In particular, there's one that shows the pump pin in place and should help you get it aligned.

The purpose of the pin is to get you within one tooth of correct... you use the dial indicator to get it the rest of the way.

Having said that, the engine has to be exactly at TDC and without a tranny that's a real tall order... there is an official VW tool and I've never seen a work around.

In my mind you probably have bigger issues at the moment if you can't turn the engine over by hand...most common cause (other than engine mount bolts jamming against the flywheel on the stand) is mixing up the main bearing saddles (each one has a specific mate on the block) or bearings that ended up being the wrong thickness... did you Plastigauge the new bearings after installation ?

I'd say "halt" and figure out why the engine is seized before moving on.. and you're gonna have to figure out some way to temporarily attach a tranny if you want to set the timing in the stand.  Otherwise leave the cam out until the engine is back in and carry on.

One other thing... dunno what you mean by stripping threads on the crankshaft gear.. but if you mean the crankshaft bolt I'd recommend getting a new one and starting over... it's a very specific part that needs to be tightened to a very specific torque... if it comes loose all your rebuild work will be for naught !

[Jet A]

Vincent, Thanks for the link.

So the pin itself is extremely wobble in the hole. provided i can only get it about a 1/16th into the hole behind the gear. Basically, i still have about 3/8 of the pin left, before the bigger section hits the gear.This tells me it should go further in the hole. If i rock the gear it pulls out the pin

The guy i got the car from apparently had the motor "rebuilt" and then sold it. without really driving it. The motor looks like it was built by a two year old.

The bolt that goes through the gear, into the end of the crankshaft was two short, so when i stuck it in (Not knowing it was two short.) I went to tighten and it pulled out the first three threads. I went to the hardware store bought a longer bolt. Put some Locktite on it, shoved it home and torqued. No prolems there.....now

I have not plastigauged it. The caps were marked prior to removal, and are in the correct spot. I am going to loosen them back up, and see what i can get figured out. I hadnt planned on running it like that, I havent even torqued the head..I have snugged it. I like to make sure everything fits nicely before i torque it down. (I know it needs to be torqed for timing for best results.)

[Jet A]

Update.....


I had my rod caps in reverse order. number 4 had #1 cap and so on. When i took the pistons off for coating, i put the rods in a box in order. The box got spun 180 or my mind did. either way....found that error. Still cant get the damn pin in the hole. gunna drill out the mounting block in a min......that fixer

[jimfoo]

Take the crankshaft bolt out, throw it away, buy the correct bolt (not from the hardware store) and tighten to the correct torque, or else start saving up for another rebuild in the near future.

[Jet A]

Why would i throw away my hardware store bolt? is there something special about a VW bolt, besides the cost? :?

The current bolt is torqed at the correct spec, with loctite on it.

Man, yall are makin this bolt sound like it has an important roll....am i missing something? it holds the timing pully onto a keyed shaft correct? does it provide some preload crank as well?

[cyrus #1]

If the bolt loosens or backs out for any reason it will wreck the keyway and then the pulley will most likely slip.  At this point your valves will say hello to your pistons.  Do some searching on the 1.9 crank pulley issues.

What grade is the VW bolt?  What grade is your hardware store bolt?  If you can't answer these questions you may want to stop and look into it a bit further.

[jimfoo]

The price of the correct bolt $2.50. The price of a destroyed engine? How can you pay to ceramic coat your pistons, have custom intake & exhaust,  yet be so cheap on such an inexpensive yet critical part?

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

I am to the point where i am timing the engine. I cant get the pin to lock the IP to go into the hole. there are two brackets on the backside, on is a L bracket, the other is the IP bracket. It looks more like a butcrack than it does a round hole. Is this the way its supposed to be, whats going on?
I can get the pin partway in, but its all floppy and i can move the gear about 5degrees or so (guessing)

How do you get the engine tdc without the tranny installed, and without the vw tool? is there a trick?

And....how do you set belt tension without that tool? any ROT's?

Side note, I have the bently manual.
Also, after i installed all new 4 pistons and rings, i noticed i am unable to  turn the motor over by hand. it put a crow bar on the flywheel tooth and wedge agains the engine stand, it was tough before, but impossble now, should i worry? The bolts on the engine stand are pinned against the flywheel, i am hoping the additional weight has just prevented this, and not my own doing somwhere.

(also stripped out the first couple of threads in the crankshaft gear :evil: that made me pretty happy!) I am beging to think my vw does like me.

If you can't get the locating pin in then its because you have the pump swung beyond the limints of the adjusting slot. This may have been done to pinch more room to extract injector #2 [If it's a TD]

Strippping out 3 threads due to a short bolt, although probably not the end of the world  is very careless IMO. I can't see how anyone can screw a bolt into something and not realise that nipping up has begun after only 3 turns :roll: Never mind perhaps you were distracted by kids, women, or ferrets biting yer ear or something [don't I know :shock: ]

Not sure about the cheap bolt. Seeing as it took the torque, after asll  proper bolts undo also. If you think you've glued it in then messing around with your already defficient thread hole, is less than ideal...

[dieselweasel]

The pin for the pump gear is probably not going into the hole because there is some rust in the hole.  Try cleaning it up a bit with a wire brush or something.

Definitely get the proper crankshaft sprocket bolt.  Like jimfoo said it is a very inexpensive part by VW standards, and you'll know that its the correct grade.  

Also keep in mind that without a timing belt, the engine is not going to turn over all of the way because the pistons will hit the valves.  

ROT for setting timing belt tension is you should be able to turn it 45 degrees easily when checked between the cam and pump sprockets.

[Jet A]

If the bolt loosens or backs out for any reason it will wreck the keyway and then the pulley will most likely slip.  At this point your valves will say hello to your pistons.  Do some searching on the 1.9 crank pulley issues.

What grade is the VW bolt?  What grade is your hardware store bolt?  If you can't answer these questions you may want to stop and look into it a bit further.

Grade of the stock vw bolt.

Approx 8.8. Bolt yeilded at 85ksi or 586Mpa. failed at 108ksi (744mpa)

My "hardware store" bolt ($2.19). (had 10.9 on the head) yeilded at 135ksi (935mpa), and failed at 152.7ksi (1053mpa).

So i destroyed my $2.19 bolt to prove that the vw bolt was of less grade than the one i put in there. Ill put pics of the the broken bolts up later. the 10.9 had a louder bang when it gave. Also, the "vw" bolt broke near the head.

Rule of thumb in design, 4 threads engaged is as strong as the bolt. so why did my bolt strip at 35ftlbs?

Im just saying... i am not just slapping the motor back together.

I actually chased the remainder of the threads in the crankshaft with a bottom tap and cleaned the hole out. still had a good 7 or 8 threads left. it apeard anyway. I applied loctite to that bolt as well as every other pulley timing and vbelt on that motor. except for the pump. i also put loctite on the water pump as well. (just a personal preference)



jimfoo - I was not being cheap....I didnt go the shelf, and find a bolt that fit. I went to the hardware store and bought a specific bolt for a specific application. But i would agree with you. In most cases, the proper anything is a important when rebuilding.

Back on point

dieselweasel- could you elaborate on the 45degrees thing? what is moving 45degrees?

Some how, i am begining to think my pump mount is not mounted correctly...if that is possible. it covers up half of the hole. Its not rust, or junk. the ip mount plate IS blocking half of the hole. Ive tried rotating it, but my sledge hammer is not big enough to get it to budge :shock: .

But seriously. there is a definate mark on the pump, but just a little scratch mark on the plate to line it up. they are pretty close, not enough to clear up the hole if rotated. am i still missing something?

[zukgod1]

Can you post up a pic of the area in question?
We may be able to help more if we can see what's up.

[Jet A]

Can you post up a pic of the area in question?
We may be able to help more if we can see what's up.

I tried like heck to get a good picture. I am going to have to get out the big light tonight and try again.

"Impact power :!:  :!: "

[dieselweasel]

[
dieselweasel- could you elaborate on the 45degrees thing? what is moving 45degrees?

The timing belt.  You want to be able to rotate the timing belt 45 degrees to be tensioned properly.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

The weasel is referring to tension of the timing belt being enough that between cam sprocket and pump sprocket 45 degree 'twist' is just manageable.
 Some like belt to be such that it will just slide on sprockets if pushed with finger and thumbs.

Builders crack hole is not down to rust as I previously stated; the pump complete with sprocket needs to be rotated one belt tooth to put the pump back on the aduster range.  
This will involve slackening off pump and timing belt. Clamp belt to cam sprocket AND set car in gear. Ease off t/b and keepig sprocket of pump fixed in relation to pump rotate pump one tooth in the direction that gives you a bigger builders's crack :lol: